# "Rate of abortion is highest in countries where practice is banned" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2012, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224 "2012-01-21T16:55:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224/101 "2012-01-26T00:59:08Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > t. > I know that philosphy is more than a mind game and ethical problems do not have clear-cut solutions. for me, the solution is that personhood only after birth makes personhood dependent on “geography” (inside or outside the womb). It doens’t stand to reason that a 6-month premie is a person and a 7-month fetus isn’t, so you go back to the very beginning: conception. It is not quite geography. It is also the presence of brain activity and the ability to live independently. I’m fine with a requirement that a fetus who can survive outside the womb be extracted intact, assuming that this doesn’t put the mother’s life at risk. Remember, the fetus is not just in the womb, it is on life support. If it cannot survive when we pull the plug … > [@](#): > > The baptising goes on in a more than 99% (at least nominal) christian country and would never be done if there was doubt. With prior permission, I hope. I’m sure your mother-in-law wouldn’t do it, but I would be suspicious of nurses baptizing babies for the good of their supposed souls. > [@](#): > > Mormons (because there are human beings) have the same right to decide what is sold in their neighborhood as the rest. While their own motivation can be religious it shouldn’t invalidate their right. In the US they cannot, thanks to the First Amendment. There must be some secular argument for a prohibition, such as for alcohol. Prop 8 in California is a religious thing, but the defenders of it had to try to use secular arguments, and failed miserably in court. BTW, my example was purely hypothetical. I’ve seen many videos from various Convention and Visitors Bureaus, and none had more alcohol in it than the one for Salt Lake City. They wanted to be sure that site committees knew you could drink. There were some odd rules, now relaxed, but nothing even like a ban and better than Oklahoma City back in the '80s. ---
**Author:** ![florez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@florez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/florez)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224/102 "2012-01-26T01:27:45Z")
[quote=“Aji\_de\_Gallina, post:97, topic:610224”] I’ll try to find some relevant quotes. It’s not an easy choice and it’s horrible in many senses. However, repoductive choice is second fiddle to life. I feel for you being raised with catholic ideology, because I also come from that. It has the ability to twist your good will and love into their unholy movement against people who are different, and people who are defiant. Women who desire to think for themselves and control their own reproduction are in the defiant category. To say that reproductive choice is second fiddle to life, is not taking into consideration many important things. I have met women who wanted abortions because they were sick or hooked on drugs and/or alcohol. I would give them referrals to services, whereby they might find ways to end their addictions, or cure their illness, but ultimately, it was the woman herself who knew best what she was capable of (as far as taking care of her body during those nine months). Situations like these taught me to respect choice, that all was not black and white. Life being brought into the world is not always beautiful and right, and who ever thinks they have the power to judge each individual situation with only one option–is thinking incorrectly. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224/103 "2012-01-26T17:34:29Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > It is not quite geography. It is also the presence of brain activity and the ability to live independently. I’m fine with a requirement that a fetus who can survive outside the womb be extracted intact, assuming that this doesn’t put the mother’s life at risk. Remember, the fetus is not just in the womb, it is on life support. If it cannot survive when we pull the plug … > > With prior permission, I hope. I’m sure your mother-in-law wouldn’t do it, but I would be suspicious of nurses baptizing babies for the good of their supposed souls. > > In the US they cannot, thanks to the First Amendment. There must be some secular argument for a prohibition, such as for alcohol. Prop 8 in California is a religious thing, but the defenders of it had to try to use secular arguments, and failed miserably in court. > > BTW, my example was purely hypothetical. I’ve seen many videos from various Convention and Visitors Bureaus, and none had more alcohol in it than the one for Salt Lake City. They wanted to be sure that site committees knew you could drink. There were some odd rules, now relaxed, but nothing even like a ban and better than Oklahoma City back in the '80s. I agree it’s more than geography, but for many pro-choice people it is. The baptising thing. It’s like they had sprinklers in the bay room. It was a once-every-couple-of-years thing. I thought the example was real-life, but the point is that people can decide they don’t want certain buisinesses in the neighbourhood if the law allows them. > [@florez](#): > > > [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > > > I’ll try to find some relevant quotes. > > It’s not an easy choice and it’s horrible in many senses. However, repoductive choice is second fiddle to life.. > > I feel for you being raised with catholic ideology, because I also come from that. It has the ability to twist your good will and love into their unholy movement against people who are different, and people who are defiant. Women who desire to think for themselves and control their own reproduction are in the defiant category. > To say that reproductive choice is second fiddle to life, is not taking into consideration many important things. > I have met women who wanted abortions because they were sick or hooked on drugs and/or alcohol. I would give them referrals to services, whereby they might find ways to end their addictions, or cure their illness, but ultimately, it was the woman herself who knew best what she was capable of (as far as taking care of her body during those nine months). Situations like these taught me to respect choice, that all was not black and white. > Life being brought into the world is not always beautiful and right, and who ever thinks they have the power to judge each individual situation with only one option–is thinking incorrectly. Don’t feel for me. Black and white almost never a real-life scenario, but for me killing vs. not-killing an innocent is black and white, no easy and very, very hard in some occasions. ---
**Author:** ![florez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@florez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/florez)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224/104 "2012-01-26T19:24:59Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Don’t feel for me. Black and white almost never a real-life scenario, but for me killing vs. not-killing an innocent is black and white, no easy and very, very hard in some occasions. OK, well maybe you never had any good will or love to twist, or maybe you are just seriously stupid.:smack: For YOU killing vs. not killing an innocent, for you, and YOUR BODY, but not the bodies of all women. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224/105 "2012-01-26T23:12:22Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Black and white almost never a real-life scenario, but for me killing vs. not-killing an innocent is black and white, no easy and very, very hard in some occasions. A fetus is not an “innocent”, no matter how much you want to pretend it is. What you are doing is _manufacturing_ a definition of “person” that lets you _pretend_ that a fetus is a person, so that you can justify grossly abusing women while pretending to a false moral superiority. Whether you choose to admit it to yourself or anyone else, that is what you are doing. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224/106 "2012-01-27T02:41:06Z")
> [@florez](#): > > OK, well maybe you never had any good will or love to twist, or maybe you are just seriously stupid.:smack: > For YOU killing vs. not killing an innocent, for you, and YOUR BODY, but not the bodies of all women. Maybe, maybe. Not all women, many oppose abortion. And, yeah, all societies make decisions that affect people’s bodies. Shutting down the polluting company means people lose their jobs. ---
**Author:** ![florez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@florez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/florez)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224/107 "2012-01-27T03:51:23Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Maybe, maybe. > Not all women, many oppose abortion. And, yeah, all societies make decisions that affect people’s bodies. Shutting down the polluting company means people lose their jobs. Shutting down a polluting company is exactly how I feel about my efforts to stop anti choice forces. I always try to respect each woman’s view; even yours (if it would affect only your own choice for your own body), but you have been trained by your polluting company to power trip onto the lives of others. In many situations you will literally be dooming people to the worst possible life, with your belief system. Yet let them be damned, as long as you can feel heroic and get to heaven? Or whatever your company has promised you in return for being uncaring in this way. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224/108 "2012-01-27T04:22:51Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Not all women, many oppose abortion. As long as it isn’t their abortion. > [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > And, yeah, all societies make decisions that affect people’s bodies. Shutting down the polluting company means people lose their jobs. False analogy. A closer one to opposing abortion would be tying people down and forcing them to drink contaminated water. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224/109 "2012-01-27T09:47:05Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Not all women, many oppose abortion. And, yeah, all societies make decisions that affect people’s bodies. Shutting down the polluting company means people lose their jobs. What is the societal cost of abortion, the equivalent of the released pollution in your rather tortured analogy? Is it something more than “we don’t get as many babies”, because if not, I’d personally prefer a state that that was more interested in quality of life, rather than sheer quantity. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224/110 "2012-01-28T00:18:17Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > What is the societal cost of abortion, the equivalent of the released pollution in your rather tortured analogy? Is it something more than “we don’t get as many babies”, because if not, I’d personally prefer a state that that was more interested in quality of life, rather than sheer quantity. The societal cost = The murder of innocents. The problem is not “we don’t get as many babies”, it is “let’s not kill innocents”. > [@](#): > > Shutting down a polluting company is exactly how I feel about my efforts to stop anti choice forces. > I always try to respect each woman’s view; even yours (if it would affect only your own choice for your own body), but you have been trained by your polluting company to power trip onto the lives of others. In many situations you will literally be dooming people to the worst possible life, with your belief system. Yet let them be damned, as long as you can feel heroic and get to heaven? Or whatever your company has promised you in return for being uncaring in this way. I haven’t been trained, I’m not a pet. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224/111 "2012-01-28T01:10:55Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > The societal cost = The murder of innocents. > The problem is not “we don’t get as many babies”, it is “let’s not kill innocents”. And can you quantify what losing these innocents costs? Can you plausibly describe how society is improved by their preservation, maybe with some kind of statistics? As an afterthought, I should point out that if your response is “it’s immoral, period”, then I guess that’ll be it. I like to deal in practicalities, myself. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224/112 "2012-01-28T01:50:10Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > The societal cost = The murder of innocents. > The problem is not “we don’t get as many babies”, it is “let’s not kill innocents”. I don’t consider things that are hurting me to be “innocent.” (Actually, I don’t consider anything that is incapable of moral choice to be innocent, but that’s beside the point.) ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224/113 "2012-01-28T04:05:08Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > And can you quantify what losing these innocents costs? Can you plausibly describe how society is improved by their preservation, maybe with some kind of statistics? > > As an afterthought, I should point out that if your response is “it’s immoral, period”, then I guess that’ll be it. I like to deal in practicalities, myself. I have no idea nor will I ever endeavour to quantify to the cost of (not) killing innocents. I’m sure Stalin’s purges had benefits too, I’m sure 9/11 had practicalities. “It’s immoral, period”, sure, like rape; I’m sure there are practicalities there, too. > [@jsgoddess](#): > > I don’t consider things that are hurting me to be “innocent.” (Actually, I don’t consider anything that is incapable of moral choice to be innocent, but that’s beside the point.) We disagree, then. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224/114 "2012-01-28T04:36:14Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > I have no idea nor will I ever endeavour to quantify to the cost of (not) killing innocents. I’m sure Stalin’s purges had benefits too, I’m sure 9/11 had practicalities. Ah, but I can quantify the economic damage of the purges and 9/11 attacks, or at least make plausible estimates. For you to offer an argument that abortion should be restricted (thus infringing what I consider an individual’s right to control her own uterus), I’d like some argument of societal or economic harm. Canada has had _no_ legal restriction on abortion for over 20 years, yet I’m not aware that Canadian society has suffered any ill effects as a result. This does not appear to me to be an issue that _requires_ legislation. If all you have is the contention that it is immoral and nothing else, I don’t see why it should appear so to _you_. ---
**Author:** ![tazmin98](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/858c86/32.png) [@tazmin98](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tazmin98)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224/115 "2012-01-31T19:09:07Z")
Rape isn’t just women. Men get raped. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224/116 "2012-01-31T20:45:38Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Ah, but I can quantify the economic damage of the purges and 9/11 attacks, or at least make plausible estimates. For you to offer an argument that abortion should be restricted (thus infringing what I consider an individual’s right to control her own uterus), I’d like some argument of societal or economic harm. Damges? sure. Can you quantify the benefits? I’ll re-re-state my argument: Don’t kill innocents. > [@](#): > > Canada has had _no_ legal restriction on abortion for over 20 years, yet I’m not aware that Canadian society has suffered any ill effects as a result. This does not appear to me to be an issue that _requires_ legislation. If all you have is the contention that it is immoral and nothing else, I don’t see why it should appear so to _you_. Societies had slavery with no apparent ill effect (aside from the slaves themselves) for centuries. Slavery was considered a normal state of society, even for slaves themselves; they hate beng slaves but I’ be suprised that the concept of slavery was foreign to them. I, by the way, do not (comparatively) care if there are no societal ill-effects, it’s still killing innocents. You can call it immoral or not, it’s not important. I’m sure the Mao-caused famines (which killed tens of millions) had some quantifyable positive effect and we can say that China was not torn apart by those deaths. We can reduce poverty by killing half the poor people and you could make a very god economic-societal case for that: it’s still wrong, it’s still killing innocents. It’s still wrong. ---
**Author:** ![florez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@florez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/florez)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224/117 "2012-01-31T21:11:45Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Damges? sure. Can you quantify the benefits? > I’ll re-re-state my argument: Don’t kill innocents. > : it’s still wrong, it’s still killing innocents. > It’s still wrong. A definition of innocence is harmless or innocuousness, yet that a clump of cells could be the excuse for much harm is out of your scope of reasoning. Harm can come when women do not want to carry a pregnancy to term, and especially when denied access to safe and legal abortion. That has already been established. An “innocent” clump of cells is just being used as a pawn in a dangerous game of who controls the uterus ? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224/118 "2012-01-31T21:45:11Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Damges? sure. Can you quantify the benefits? > I’ll re-re-state my argument: Don’t kill innocents. So, no quantifiable downside. If you want a quantifiable upside, consider the money women would lose due to time off for the pregnancy and delivery. If they keep the child, consider the unplanned extra expense. Consider the cost to society if the woman and/or child needs support. But the real reason is a woman’s right to her own body. As for innocence, that is your opinion. You might as well say that a fetus is an atheist. A fetus has less brain activity than a rabbit or a cow or a lamb. Are they innocent also? ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224/119 "2012-01-31T22:28:45Z")
> [@florez](#): > > A definition of innocence is harmless or innocuousness, yet that a clump of cells could be the excuse for much harm is out of your scope of reasoning. Harm can come when women do not want to carry a pregnancy to term, and especially when denied access to safe and legal abortion. That has already been established. An “innocent” clump of cells is just being used as a pawn in a dangerous game of who controls the uterus ? Innocent = Not guilty > [@Voyager](#): > > So, no quantifiable downside. If you want a quantifiable upside, consider the money women would lose due to time off for the pregnancy and delivery. If they keep the child, consider the unplanned extra expense. Consider the cost to society if the woman and/or child needs support. > But the real reason is a woman’s right to her own body. > As for innocence, that is your opinion. You might as well say that a fetus is an atheist. A fetus has less brain activity than a rabbit or a cow or a lamb. Are they innocent also? Not my opinion, fact. ---
**Author:** ![florez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@florez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/florez)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224/120 "2012-01-31T22:38:03Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Innocent = Not guilty > > Not my opinion, fact. And the pig in your pork burger today was not guilty either, and he was already out of his mother’s womb…yet you ate him…yes, you did…you killer of innocent pigs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224.md?page=7)