# Rate of PTSD in warlike societies? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 5, 2014, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-ptsd-in-warlike-societies/703716 "2014-11-05T06:03:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![FluffyBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecb155/32.png) [@FluffyBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FluffyBob)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-ptsd-in-warlike-societies/703716/21 "2014-11-06T14:56:19Z")
> [@chacoguy](#): > > Threads like these are a gross disservice to veterans. I second the request to please elaborate on this. Is it a whoosh? I don’t see how a thread like this could be a disservice to well, anyone. What the hell are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-ptsd-in-warlike-societies/703716/22 "2014-11-06T16:06:44Z")
> [@Poysyn](#): > > In modern combat I strenuously disagree with you. A conscience and a human side is necessary to be effective in today’s battlefield. It always has been. Ultimately, good soldiers fight for the soldier next to them. You need a conscience for that. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-ptsd-in-warlike-societies/703716/23 "2014-11-06T21:28:13Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > The Vikings weren’t very warlike. Mostly, they traded. Sometimes, they raided. But they never rock’n’rolled quite like the Mongols or the Spartans. The Spartans didn’t rock’n roll very much either, come to that. I mean, they oiled each other’s abs a lot in preparation for war and their entire society was designed around building strong tough manly warriormen and that… but as for the real thing ? They didn’t get into it overly much. Once they’d done arsekicked Messenia into submission, that was more or less it and they became creepy war-obsessed ranchers, which they remained throughout most of their golden age. Until they got into their beef with Athens that is, but that didn’t last very long ('bout 20 years, give or take) ; and after that a little putting down of slaves revolts here and there, just to keep interested, then round 2 of the wars over the Peloponnese for 8 years (this time against Corinth, now _them_ were always looking for any shit laying unstirred), and finally getting their arses kicked by the Achaeans, then the Romans for good measure. Exeunt omnes. By then there were only about 700 “real Spartans” left, not just because they’d died in the wars (although that was part of it) but also because they consistently refused to let new people become _bona fide_ Spartan citizens and Spartan citizenry was strictly tied to land ownership. Which originally couldn’t be sold or traded at all. But once \*some \*Spartans managed to get into the land consolidation game, it was all over but the whining. Hairless, \*\*manly \*\*whining. Developers, man. Only species worse than lawyers _ptooey_. And from then, a slow fade into oblivion punctuated by brief bursts of laconic wit and eventually becoming a quaint tourist trap for Romans (true story). Rome got into way, way more battles in much shorter a time than Sparta, with just about everyone around too. But Spartans were hampered by their being fucking married to the Peloponnese and not wanting to go anywhere else. Didn’t even follow Alexander on his continental drive-by - and they were the \*only \*Greek assholes who chose to stay put during that one. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2014, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-ptsd-in-warlike-societies/703716/24 "2014-11-07T01:27:34Z")
It’s interesting that the ancient Hebrews developed an elaborate post-combat cleansing ritual (Numbers 31: 19-24). And I would guess that other societies had something like; a ritual of thanks to the gods for the victory, a fasting, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Poysyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Poysyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poysyn)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2014, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-ptsd-in-warlike-societies/703716/25 "2014-11-07T03:27:32Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > It always has been. Ultimately, good soldiers fight for the soldier next to them. You need a conscience for that. Agreed, I should have been clearer. I was considering all warfare after raiding times under the same umbrella, not very concise use of language. One would think I’d know better 😉 It’s always been “Mission, Men, Myself” in that order, hence the need for self- discipline. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2014, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-ptsd-in-warlike-societies/703716/26 "2014-11-07T03:36:37Z")
Small piece from Times of Israel, three days ago. SerenDipity. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2014, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-ptsd-in-warlike-societies/703716/27 "2014-11-07T03:39:09Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > The Spartans didn’t rock’n roll very much either, come to that. > > … 🙂 I can see that entire post used as a monologue for an audition piece. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2014, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-ptsd-in-warlike-societies/703716/28 "2014-11-07T15:18:57Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > 🙂 I can see that entire post used as a monologue for an audition piece. 😃 My lawyer has advised me to neither confirm nor deny that I’ve been rewatching _The Wite_ (for the Nth time) and wish to be reborn as The Bunk. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-ptsd-in-warlike-societies/703716/29 "2014-11-07T18:33:23Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > It’s interesting that the ancient Hebrews developed an elaborate post-combat cleansing ritual (Numbers 31: 19-24). And I would guess that other societies had something like; a ritual of thanks to the gods for the victory, a fasting, etc. The amount of small churches in the Middle of Nowhere, Spain, which happen to have been built on the site where Mass was celebrated after a victory is quite high. Said locations tend to be upwind of where the actual battle took place. Even the practice of going over the battlefield looting, picking up prisoners worth ransoming/enslaving/enrolling, and giving a knife’s mercy to those too wounded got somewhat ritualized throughout the years. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-ptsd-in-warlike-societies/703716/30 "2014-11-07T18:42:09Z")
Herodotus describes what’s thought to be a case of hysterical blindness at the battle of Marathon. So there’s at least one case. But than, that was remarkable enough for Herodotus to point it out, so it probably didn’t happen often. PTSD amongst soldiers is generally thought to be related to the duration of exposure to danger, the unpredictability of violent injury/death and the feeling of control, fairness and predictability in how life is conducted in dangerous situations. A lot of primitive warfare was fought in discrete, short, and at least somewhat predictable battles according to generally understood rules and traditions, by soldiers that were fighting in a well established social hierarchy that existed even outside the military. So I suspect that PTSD was less common in ancient warfare than modern, where battles can often be sprawling, months long affairs with vaguly defined front lines, and where death is often dispersed fairly randomly in the form of long-range shells and missiles. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-ptsd-in-warlike-societies/703716/31 "2014-11-07T19:25:27Z")
> [@](#): > > from [Post-traumatic stress disorder - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posttraumatic_stress_disorder) > > Psychiatrist Jonathan Shay has proposed that Lady Percy’s soliloquy in Henry IV, Part 1 (act 2, scene 3, lines 40–62[199]), written around 1597, represents an unusually accurate description of the symptom constellation of PTSD. > [@](#): > > from Henry IV, part 1 > > O my good lord, why are you thus alone? > For what offence have I this fortnight been > A banish’d woman from my Harry’s bed, > Tell me, sweet lord, what is’t that takes from thee > Thy stomach, pleasure, and thy golden sleep? > Why dost thou bend thine eyes upon the earth, > And start so often when thou sit’st alone? > Why hast thou lost the fresh blood in thy cheeks > And given my treasures and my rights of thee > To thick-ey’d musing and curs’d melancholy? > In thy faint slumbers I by thee have watch’d, > And heard thee murmur tales of iron wars, > Speak terms of manage to thy bounding steed, > Cry ‘Courage! to the field!’ And thou hast talk’d > Of sallies and retires, of trenches, tent, > Of palisadoes, frontiers, parapets, > Of basilisks, of cannon, culverin, > Of prisoners’ ransom, and of soldiers slain, > And all the currents of a heady fight. > Thy spirit within thee hath been so at war, > And thus hath so bestirr’d thee in thy sleep, > That beads of sweat have stood upon thy brow > Like bubbles ill a late-disturbed stream, > And in thy face strange motions have appear’d, > Such as we see when men restrain their breath > On some great sudden hest. O, what portents are these? > Some heavy business hath my lord in hand, > And I must know it, else he loves me not. I have read an article by a historian who opined that Gautama Buddha may have been a Kshatriya warrior suffering from PTSD. In the opinion of the writer, “left the palace to become a mendicant holy man” might be code for “estranged from his family and became a homeless beggar”. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-ptsd-in-warlike-societies/703716/32 "2014-11-07T19:29:34Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > I have read an article by a historian who opined that Gautama Buddha may have been a Kshatriya warrior suffering from PTSD. In the opinion of the writer, “left the palace to become a mendicant holy man” might be code for “estranged from his family and became a homeless beggar”. Jonathan Shay also wrote the excellent **Achilles in Vietnam** , about similarities between the description of PTSD suffering Vietnam vets and those in the Illiad. It’s really more about Vietnam than the Homeric Greece, so I’m not sure its that useful to answering the OP’s question, but I thought I’d throw in a mention. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-ptsd-in-warlike-societies/703716.md?page=1)