# Rate the bullshit level of this story of a man dying in police custody. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 3, 2012, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-the-bullshit-level-of-this-story-of-a-man-dying-in-police-custody/630321 "2012-08-03T17:35:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-the-bullshit-level-of-this-story-of-a-man-dying-in-police-custody/630321/81 "2012-08-04T18:22:42Z")
I find it more believable (somewhat) if the guy shot himself by accident (as **Blank Slate** says) than if he was trying to commit suicide. The gun is tucked into the back of his waistband (and if his hands are cuffed behind him, it would explain how the gun was missed in the second search - the cops didn’t frisk under the cuffed hands). So the guy is trying to get it out, drops it, looks over to try to grab and hide it, it is stuck between his back and the seat, and he hits the trigger too hard with his finger or thumb and blammo - brains all over the backseat. But I don’t know, really. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-the-bullshit-level-of-this-story-of-a-man-dying-in-police-custody/630321/82 "2012-08-04T21:29:16Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The gun is tucked into the back of his waistband (and if his hands are cuffed behind him, it would explain how the gun was missed in the second search - the cops didn’t frisk under the cuffed hands). > > So the guy is trying to get it out, drops it, looks over to try to grab and hide it, it is stuck between his back and the seat, and he hits the trigger too hard with his finger or thumb and blammo - brains all over the backseat. I’d go with that. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-the-bullshit-level-of-this-story-of-a-man-dying-in-police-custody/630321/83 "2012-08-05T03:53:32Z")
Unfortunately, I don’t know how many police departments realize that the few rotten apples out there have created a general mistrust, certainly among minorities, but also within the some of general population as well. I think that this is an example of the importance of good crisis management. Local police departments should be having outside investigators taking over right away, and look into releasing more exculpatory evidence sooner. I know I’d feel better if they said that they were turning this over to the sheriff’s department or the FBI; that there were X number of witnesses and these witnesses were being interviewed by outside authorities; and release whatever camcorder recording they have. It seems they are getting there, but when you’ve got distraught mothers on TV, having a plan on how to handle it would seem to be a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-the-bullshit-level-of-this-story-of-a-man-dying-in-police-custody/630321/84 "2012-08-05T04:22:41Z")
The problem with the cover up angle is that based on the data out there 1: This was a standard bread and butter arrest and he was not resisting them at all 2: There were a bunch of people in the vicinity that were being handled / processed. There was no substantive alone time with this suspect to be terrorizing him. 3: He had admitted his name, they found stuff on him, and he had a warrant. He’s done. Next stop the pokey. What would have been the goal or the rationale for them to be threatening him or waving a gun at him? 4: The police chief and the officers seem fairly candid about the circumstances and to be welcoming the FBI on board. None of this points in the direction of a terrorizing a prisoner gone bad scenario. ---
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-the-bullshit-level-of-this-story-of-a-man-dying-in-police-custody/630321/85 "2012-08-05T12:19:08Z")
Based on reading the OP and the article linked there, I voted for option three (negligence/lying by the cops). If we were allowed multiple choices, I would have also voted for option two (external investigation). Even based on just the OP and not the additional information about witnesses and other evidence added later in the threads, I didn’t think it was likely the cops either accidentally or purposefully shot the suspect. I thought it was likely that the police didn’t realize he had a gun, and that he either accidentally shot himself trying to hide the gun, or (less likely) killed himself. I know several people who have very flexible shoulders, and I don’t think it’s too unlikely that he could have shot himself. The reason I voted for negligence/lying by the cops is that I would not be at all surprised if it turns out that they either did not follow proper procedure and/or they lied about some detail(s) of what happened. A random example I can imagine is that maybe procedure says they should have searched him twice, but the second search didn’t really happen or wasn’t done properly. Then they might have lied to say that the searches happened, thinking it might give them less liability and be better for their careers if they missed a gun during a search rather than not doing a required search. Another (extremely unlikely) scenario I thought of was that this kind of reminded me of an episode of a tv show I once saw, where a suspect had been cuffed and locked in a police car with a gun the cops missed during the patdown, and they hid it on the floor/under the seat of the car to avoid getting additional charges for having the gun. Then when the police brought him to the station they failed to check their car properly and didn’t see the gun. Then the _next_ person they arrested found the gun and used it. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-the-bullshit-level-of-this-story-of-a-man-dying-in-police-custody/630321/86 "2012-08-05T14:55:59Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > So he’s got a gun tucked in his waistband, small of his back. He can’t believe the cops haven’t found it but he knows he’s screwed when he gets to the police station. He’s alone in the car so he pulls it out and starts trying to shove it down in the gap between the back cushion and the seat cushion. This being a police car, I would guess the gap is sealed because suspects probably try to hide stuff regularly. He doesn’t know that so he pushes harder and harder, looking over his shoulder and whoop, blammo. > > It could happen. The hardest part to believe is the gun surviving two searches. Perhaps **Loach** has had experiences where significant objects were overlooked during frisks? Sorry, missed this the first time around. Some of our cars have a one piece solid molded backseat. Only a few that were bought at the same time. Even though they are a good idea most of our cars are not like that. I’m assuming cost. All of the other ones have regular Ford bench seats. And no the gap is not sealed. Just the opposite. The seat cushion is not attached so its easy to lift up and look underneath. People still try to hide things but if you follow procedures you should be able to find it. If he had a gun when they were first stopped he had the time to shove it deep into his pants/underwear. A Terry frisk generally just hits the areas in which a weapon can be hidden and easily reached for. Waistband, ankle etc. The search after an arrest should be more thorough. Something buried deep in their clothing is harder to find. Especially something soft like drugs. A weapon should be found. However, some people are more uncomfortable grabbing at someones crotch. So yes it happens, things are missed. I do think its more likely that he was contorting himself to get rid of the gun and shot himself accidentally than he meant to kill himself. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-the-bullshit-level-of-this-story-of-a-man-dying-in-police-custody/630321/87 "2012-08-05T21:59:46Z")
One of the news reports said the gun was a “Colt Cobra .380…a big, heavy gun”. The Cobra is a revolver, and I don’t thing it is made in .380. The .38 is made to be concealable. A .380 semi auto would be small, too. ---
**Author:** ![JKilez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e5b9ba/32.png) [@JKilez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKilez)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-the-bullshit-level-of-this-story-of-a-man-dying-in-police-custody/630321/88 "2012-08-05T22:32:59Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > So he’s got a gun tucked in his waistband, small of his back. He can’t believe the cops haven’t found it but he knows he’s screwed when he gets to the police station. He’s alone in the car so he pulls it out and starts trying to shove it down in the gap between the back cushion and the seat cushion. This being a police car, I would guess the gap is sealed because suspects probably try to hide stuff regularly. He doesn’t know that so he pushes harder and harder, looking over his shoulder and whoop, blammo. This is the first thing I thought of when I read the article in the OP. When trying to look at something behind your back, your head naturally tilts temple down as you crane your neck so that you can see. If the gun misfired while he was trying to stash it behind a seat cushion, it is easy to see how the shot could be aligned to fire more or less straight up towards his head. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-the-bullshit-level-of-this-story-of-a-man-dying-in-police-custody/630321/89 "2012-08-06T00:34:32Z")
> [@JKilez](#): > > If the gun misfired while he was trying to stash it behind a seat cushion, it is easy to see how the shot could be aligned to fire more or less straight up towards his head. And contrary to illiterate mystery authors, revolvers have no safety. ---
**Author:** ![palacheck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a88e57/32.png) [@palacheck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/palacheck)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-the-bullshit-level-of-this-story-of-a-man-dying-in-police-custody/630321/90 "2012-08-06T08:34:47Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > One of the news reports said the gun was a “Colt Cobra .380…a big, heavy gun”. The Cobra is a revolver, and I don’t thing it is made in .380. The .38 is made to be concealable. A .380 semi auto would be small, too. It’s also a junk pistol in .380. Google it. I have in my possession a .22 pocket pistol given to me by my friend, a retired cop. It’s a Jimenez Arms .22, and it’s pot metal Saturday Night Special garbage. He kept it on his ankle. Now why would a cop carry a SNS .22 pistol on his ankle while on duty? Most serious gun enthusiasts stay far, far away from the junk pistol brands(Raven, Jimenez, Davis, etc.) He’s a nice guy, but he’s also a bit shady. I could easily see a cop bringing along a junk pistol–like the kind most gangstas seem to carry(watch shows like The First 48)–in case it was ever…needed. But this is all just speculation of course. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-the-bullshit-level-of-this-story-of-a-man-dying-in-police-custody/630321/91 "2012-08-06T14:17:53Z")
> [@palacheck](#): > > It’s also a junk pistol in .380. Google it. > > I have in my possession a .22 pocket pistol given to me by my friend, a retired cop. It’s a Jimenez Arms .22, and it’s pot metal Saturday Night Special garbage. He kept it on his ankle. > > Now why would a cop carry a SNS .22 pistol on his ankle while on duty? Most serious gun enthusiasts stay far, far away from the junk pistol brands(Raven, Jimenez, Davis, etc.) He’s a nice guy, but he’s also a bit shady. I could easily see a cop bringing along a junk pistol–like the kind most gangstas seem to carry(watch shows like The First 48)–in case it was ever…needed. > > But this is all just speculation of course. And I know hundreds of police officers. Not one carries a junk pistol. I have only heard of throw away guns on TV. I’m sure it happened somewhere at sometime to give Raymond Chandler or whoever wrote it first the idea but it is as far away from common practice as possible. And your speculation makes no sense. Anyone who has watched a cop show or read a mystery knows you shoot the guy with your gun and leave the throw away to prove he pulled a gun on you. You don’t shoot him with it and claim he killed himself while cuffed. That’s just bad storytelling. Here is what we know. I will take the police chief’s statement as fact for now simply because if he is lying he is the biggest idiot in the world. Everything he said can be easily verified and the FBI is looking at it. Believe me no one is willing to go to jail or lose their careers for some random guy they don’t know just because he happens to be wearing a badge. 1. The officers did not shoot their guns. 2. The gun found was reported stolen from another jurisdiction a month before. 3. Video, audio and witnesses put the officers outside of the car at the time of the shot. 4. Carter’s cell phone showed he was going to a drug deal and they suggest it mentions a gun. That should all be revealed when the investigation concludes. 5. The windows were intact and up so no shot came from outside. 6. The police have said, “the statements(of the witnesses) and the audio/video evidence from the dash cams account for the policemen’s actions from the beginning of the stop until the arrival of the ambulance.” If that is true then there is nothing else to say on the matter. We probably won’t know exactly how he was handling the gun when it went off but if the officer’s actions were accounted for the entire time and neither went into the car, that’s it. One thing that has been annoying me. Reading some articles and some of the comments on the articles (I know, never read the comment section) some people are harping on the fact that the cuffs were “double-locked.” “OMG not only was he cuffed THEY WERE DOUBLELOCKED!!!” Double locking cuffs is a simple concept. Cuffs go in only one direction. When you close them you can make them tighter but can’t pull them open without a key. When you put the cuffs on someone you tighten them to the appropriate amount depending on the size of the suspect. Then you take the cuff key and use the little post on the top part of the [key.](http://www.galls.com/gan/style-RS009-general_catalog-galls-standard-cuff-keys-10-pack;jsessionid=7D9DF24AFD11FBD380696F570EBF24FB) There is a little hole on the side of the cuff. You put the post in the hole and hear a click. All that simply does is keep the cuffs from getting\* tighter\*. Its done so that the suspect can’t sit on the cuffs and tighten them to the point of pain or injury. Double locking cuffs does not in any way make them more secure or harder to move in. ---
**Author:** ![Sigene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df788c/32.png) [@Sigene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigene)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-the-bullshit-level-of-this-story-of-a-man-dying-in-police-custody/630321/92 "2012-08-06T17:42:25Z")
maybe this is inappropriate, but I’m a bit shocked to see so many people on the dope automatically thinking conspiracy and coverup without any evidence. I’m still not really sure he was shot in the head. Is there any credible evidence yet for that? If you have it, can you point me to it? I’d like a little more credibility than statements made by family members in newspapers. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-the-bullshit-level-of-this-story-of-a-man-dying-in-police-custody/630321/93 "2012-08-06T17:52:38Z")
> [@Sigene](#): > > maybe this is inappropriate, but I’m a bit shocked to see so many people on the dope automatically thinking conspiracy and coverup without any evidence. > > I’m still not really sure he was shot in the head. Is there any credible evidence yet for that? If you have it, can you point me to it? I’d like a little more credibility than statements made by family members in newspapers. In this case I find it understandable. It’s unusual. At first glance the initial reaction is “How the hell did that happen?” But since it happened in a patrol car I figured the truth and evidence would come out one way or the other. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-the-bullshit-level-of-this-story-of-a-man-dying-in-police-custody/630321/94 "2012-08-06T18:40:45Z")
If I have my hands cuffed behind me, I can get them around and under me to an extent - so that my hands can reach up under my thighs, if I also had access to a pistol it would be easy to bend down toward my lap and shoot myself in the head. This suspect would have been sat down in the back, with his hands behind, he just pulls his knees up, slides his hands under his ass, pushes his thighs apart leaving a gap, points gun upwards, bends over forwards, shoots. Try it, not hard at all, a bit of a tussle but doable. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-the-bullshit-level-of-this-story-of-a-man-dying-in-police-custody/630321/95 "2012-08-06T18:41:07Z")
Colt does make a [cobra .380 semi.](http://www.landrysguns.com/Pages/Handguns/images/Cobra%20380.JPG) ---
**Author:** ![JKilez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e5b9ba/32.png) [@JKilez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKilez)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-the-bullshit-level-of-this-story-of-a-man-dying-in-police-custody/630321/96 "2012-08-07T18:16:15Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > If I have my hands cuffed behind me, I can get them around and under me to an extent - so that my hands can reach up under my thighs, if I also had access to a pistol it would be easy to bend down toward my lap and shoot myself in the head. Sure, but what would be the suspect’s motivation for doing so? There is nothing in the current info that would point to a deliberate act on his part. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-the-bullshit-level-of-this-story-of-a-man-dying-in-police-custody/630321/97 "2012-08-07T18:28:19Z")
> [@JKilez](#): > > Sure, but what would be the suspect’s motivation for doing so? There is nothing in the current info that would point to a deliberate act on his part. Save that it happened, and there are much easier ways for the policemen to kill him if they wanted to. I’ve only seen one article that mentioned scales in the back of the truck. I still agree the he was trying to dump the pistol. I\* hate\* agreeing with Loach. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![JKilez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e5b9ba/32.png) [@JKilez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKilez)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-the-bullshit-level-of-this-story-of-a-man-dying-in-police-custody/630321/98 "2012-08-07T18:45:04Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Save that it happened… My point was that there is no reason to suspect that he deliberately killed himself. Determining whether he could take the gun out and aim it at his temple is a pointless as it looks like no more than a tragic accident. Unless those police officers are just so incredibly smart. They had the forethought to perform their malfeasance outside of video/audio range of the camera while at the same time putting on an act like nothing was wrong for all the witnesses. Then to came up with a story so odd and unusual that it gains the attention of the FBI and bloggers everywhere–pure genius! With all this attention and the corresponding investigations by outside agencies, no one could possibly suspect them. I guess sometimes I just underestimate our law enforcement officers. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-the-bullshit-level-of-this-story-of-a-man-dying-in-police-custody/630321/99 "2012-08-07T19:00:45Z")
> [@JKilez](#): > > My point was that there is no reason to suspect that he deliberately killed himself. Determining whether he could take the gun out and aim it at his temple is a pointless as it looks like no more than a tragic accident. I agree, and believe he was trying to dump the gun. I’m certain some people feel just as strongly about this as I feel about the policeman who said he was going to taze a handcuffed guy and shot him in the back. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-the-bullshit-level-of-this-story-of-a-man-dying-in-police-custody/630321/100 "2012-08-07T20:22:51Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > It could happen. The hardest part to believe is the gun surviving two searches. Perhaps **Loach** has had experiences where significant objects were overlooked during frisks? I was trying to look up specifics on a “Terry frisk”. Earlier in the thread I was given the impression it is a limited frisk. What I read is that it is a limited search of the outer clothing for weapons. Thus it is not a full, thorough search like upon arrest. But I’m not getting more specifics to explain the difference. > [@Merneith](#): > > Those are their movements, according to the report. Neither the report nor I have said whether they were walking, running, jumping, or skipping - nor do I care. Their precise mode of ambulation is irrelevant. Point of fact, you should look more closely at your own post, because you did, indeed, state _walking_ - twice. > [@Merneith](#): > > Marsh apparently got on the radio - but he didn’t request an ambulance. Instead he said something that stopped Bransum from leaving. Then Marsh **walked** to Branscum’s car and told him that Carter had shot himself. Then they both **walked** back and looked at Carter, who was still alive at that time. I bolded and underlined to help you. So you may feel the speed of translation was unimportant, but you are the one who mentioned specifically walking. > [@TokyoBayer](#): > > I think that this is an example of the importance of good crisis management. Local police departments should be having outside investigators taking over right away, and look into releasing more exculpatory evidence sooner. Right. Like bringing in the FBI immediately. Oh wait, that’s just what they did. :smack: > [@Sigene](#): > > I’m still not really sure he was shot in the head. Is there any credible evidence yet for that? If you have it, can you point me to it? I’d like a little more credibility than statements made by family members in newspapers. It states right there in the incident report, first page, that he was shot in the head. I have not seen an official source for him being shot in the temple, that seems to come from the mother. > [@JKilez](#): > > Determining whether he could take the gun out and aim it at his temple is a pointless as it looks like no more than a tragic accident. Doing so helps us explore the possibility that he could have committed suicide, which was based upon more limited data earlier in the thread. It also helps us get a grasp on the likelihood of him being able to accidentally shoot himself in the head. How does the gun barrel align with his head and go off? Trying to ditch it in the car and looking over his shoulder or to the side, and fumbling around and pushing on the barrel, and hitting the trigger, is more likely than he held it normally and put it to his temple. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-the-bullshit-level-of-this-story-of-a-man-dying-in-police-custody/630321.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-the-bullshit-level-of-this-story-of-a-man-dying-in-police-custody/630321.md?page=6)