# Rating Science Fiction and Fantasy publishers **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 25, 2007, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rating-science-fiction-and-fantasy-publishers/389346 "2007-01-25T00:39:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Drew\_Blade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/958977/32.png) [@Drew\_Blade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drew_Blade)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rating-science-fiction-and-fantasy-publishers/389346/1 "2007-01-25T00:39:09Z")
OK. You’ve written an SF&F masterpiece, a novel about 120,000 words long, if that makes a difference. You have never published anything before. Who are the best publishers for such a work of art? Who’s going to look at it in a timely manner, who’s going to be helpful for any editing it might need, who’s going to give you a fair deal, who’s going to work to sell the book? From what I have been able to figure out from going to bookstores, there are lots of possibilities, from almost mom-and-pop type presses, to the largest publishers in the world. Who would you pick if you had to pick just one? ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rating-science-fiction-and-fantasy-publishers/389346/2 "2007-01-25T01:12:34Z")
My qualifications: I used to be someone semi-important in SF for the second-largest US bookseller. These are my observations as a reader and professional and do not represent any experience in actually selling a book. Baen – owner looks just like Colonel Sanders. 🙂 Thinks of his authors “like a family” & by his own admission this includes bugging the shit out of them sometimes. EXTREMELY cheesy cover art absolutely guaranteed. Mostly hardcover originals. Tor – Mostly hardcover originals. Kind of a boutique for SF/F, and publishes a high percentage of excellent-to-exceptional material. Low publicity budget. I have a feeling that Tor doesn’t pay very well, because whenever it seems an author has pretty good success, it seems they soon switch to… Del Rey – a Division of Random House, owned by Bertelsmann, etc etc etc. Basically a publishing megacorp. Active in both hardcover and mass market originals. Biggest publicity budget. Voted most likely to land a novel on the Bestsellers list. ---
**Author:** ![pinkfreud](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pinkfreud/32/17603_2.png) [@pinkfreud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinkfreud)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rating-science-fiction-and-fantasy-publishers/389346/3 "2007-01-25T01:23:18Z")
[QUOTE=Hello Again] Baen – owner looks just like Colonel Sanders. 🙂 Thinks of his authors “like a family” & by his own admission this includes bugging the shit out of them sometimes. EXTREMELY cheesy cover art absolutely guaranteed. Mostly hardcover originals. [/QUOTE] [Jim Baen](http://www.sfwa.org/news/2006/jbaen.htm) died last summer. Apparently [Baen Books](http://www.baen.com/) is still in operation, though. Jim’s shoes are gonna be impossible to fill, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rating-science-fiction-and-fantasy-publishers/389346/4 "2007-01-25T01:31:28Z")
[QUOTE=pinkfreud] [Jim Baen](http://www.sfwa.org/news/2006/jbaen.htm) died last summer. Apparently [Baen Books](http://www.baen.com/) is still in operation, though. Jim’s shoes are gonna be impossible to fill, IMHO. [/QUOTE] Whaaa…? Holy crap! I only met him in person once but he left a memorable impression. That is really a loss for the SF/F community. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rating-science-fiction-and-fantasy-publishers/389346/5 "2007-01-25T02:32:58Z")
There’s no such thing as _a_ science fiction novel. There are hard core high-density futuristic dystopias; there are military series with women with large breasts and larger weapons on the cover; there are character-rich examinations of society; there are oblique commentaries on present technologies; there are aliens encountering earth for the first time; there are dozens of other varieties. Each type of book would probably seek a different publisher. There is no hierarchy; only what is best for the individual book and the individual author. This is just as true for sf as it is for every other type of fiction and nonfiction published. It cannot be said enough: no genre is uniform. All have dozens of subgenres and infinite shading in between. ---
**Author:** ![Drew\_Blade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/958977/32.png) [@Drew\_Blade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drew_Blade)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rating-science-fiction-and-fantasy-publishers/389346/6 "2007-01-25T18:49:11Z")
Thanks for the tips and info. Would anyone be willing to give opinions on others–say DAW (or whoever)? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rating-science-fiction-and-fantasy-publishers/389346/7 "2007-01-25T20:06:50Z")
Look, if you’re written a book and want advice about where to pitch it, _tell us everything you can about the book_. I’ve ranted about this a million times, most recently in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=404994), where I compared it to saying, Doctor, I have a pain, What should I do about it? This secretive business wastes everybody’s time. Nobody is going to steal anything from you. Nobody cares about what you’ve written. But the first thing you need to learn about the publishing business is that not all books are alike and nobody alive can give specific advice concerning a generic book. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rating-science-fiction-and-fantasy-publishers/389346/8 "2007-01-25T21:46:47Z")
[QUOTE=Hello Again] Whaaa…? Holy crap! I only met him in person once but he left a memorable impression. That is really a loss for the SF/F community. [/QUOTE] I’d say it’s a loss for the publishing community as a whole, actually. I mean, this was the guy who greenlit the [Baen Free Library](http://www.baen.com/library/) , a very large collection of Baen novels that were put online, DRM-free, for anyone to read free of charge. That was huge - I think the Free Library even pre-dates some other high-profile projects, like Cory Doctorow’s practice of putting his novels online under the Creative Commons. Baen also released at least one of the Honor Harrington novels with e-texts of all the other novels on an included CD - again, DRM-free. Say what you will about the literary merits of the Baen company’s content - they had a lot of profitable stuff in their inventory, and Jim Baen was willing to take a chance that it could stay profitable while making it available to a much, much larger audience. That took real nerve, and vision. Sorry for the hijack, all. But this kind of bums me out. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rating-science-fiction-and-fantasy-publishers/389346/9 "2007-01-25T22:47:17Z")
[QUOTE=Drew Blade] OK. You’ve written an SF&F masterpiece, a novel about 120,000 words long, if that makes a difference. You have never published anything before. Who are the best publishers for such a work of art? Who’s going to look at it in a timely manner, who’s going to be helpful for any editing it might need, who’s going to give you a fair deal, who’s going to work to sell the book? From what I have been able to figure out from going to bookstores, there are lots of possibilities, from almost mom-and-pop type presses, to the largest publishers in the world. Who would you pick if you had to pick just one? [/QUOTE] I’m not sure where your question stands on the spectrum from purely hypothetical to ‘I have the manuscript in hand’. If it’s closer to the later, you should be shopping the manuscript to agents, not to publishers. An agent’s job is to have comprehensive knowledge of publishers large and small and to know the specific likes and dislikes of each. Further, they may be privy to inside information, such as which house is overloaded right now, and which one is specifically in the market for new authors. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rating-science-fiction-and-fantasy-publishers/389346/10 "2007-01-26T00:53:39Z")
[QUOTE=Drew Blade] Who are the best publishers for such a work of art? [/quote] The one willing to pay you the most for it. Or the one willing to pay you for it in the first place. > [@](#): > > Who’s going to look at it in a timely manner See [The Black Hole](http://www.critique.org/critters/blackholes/) for response times. > [@](#): > > who’s going to be helpful for any editing it might need Publishers do not edit books. If it’s publishable, they’ll publish it. If not, they’ll find one that is. The only editing will be a few small tweaks (usually about ten suggestions), plus copyediting. > [@](#): > > who’s going to give you a fair deal Most will, but it’s best to have an agent to make sure. If you don’t have one, you can find you’ve given away things you didn’t know you had to. > [@](#): > > who’s going to work to sell the book? Any publisher that pays you an advance. The bigger the advance, the harder they work (to get back the investment). Another good reason to get an agent. > [@](#): > > Who would you pick if you had to pick just one? For me, Tor Books. But I’d be happy with anyone who writes me a check. ---
**Author:** ![DeadlyAccurate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac91a4/32.png) [@DeadlyAccurate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadlyAccurate)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rating-science-fiction-and-fantasy-publishers/389346/11 "2007-01-26T01:28:26Z")
Having a book published isn’t like buying a car. You don’t just call the publisher and tell them you want them to publish your book. The closest analogy would be getting a job. You might want to rethink going straight to the publisher, too. I interviewed a local author on my blog whose work I admire, and who sold to the publisher before he got an agent. > [@](#): > > You landed a publisher before you landed an agent, correct? How long between the time you sent in your manuscript and your acceptance? > > The manuscript was specifically requested by the editor at Tor. Well, not the specific novel, but something from me. You might think that means the fast track to reading and response. Sadly, not so. Publishing is a slow biz. I mean, really slow. \*\*It was 2 years after originally submitting that Tor finally made me an offer. \*\*You can imagine my surprise. By then, I’d already moved onto other publishers. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rating-science-fiction-and-fantasy-publishers/389346/12 "2007-01-26T01:57:47Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Excellent] Say what you will about the literary merits of the Baen company’s content - they had a lot of profitable stuff in their inventory, and Jim Baen was willing to take a chance that it could stay profitable while making it available to a much, much larger audience. That took real nerve, and vision. Sorry for the hijack, all. But this kind of bums me out. [/QUOTE] Another good thing he did - he made Galaxy and If into good, readable magazines again after that idiot Ejler Jakobsson (pardon the misspelling, I haven’t opened one of that era for 25 years) and his regimen of ecological disaster stories. Not that I minded them once in a while, but this was 90% of each issue. Did you know that we’re all supposed to be dead by now? :rolleyes: Jim Baen made those magazines fun to read again. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rating-science-fiction-and-fantasy-publishers/389346/13 "2007-01-26T04:52:37Z")
Well, I don’t know . . . which company published, _Alpha Squad 7: Lady Nocturne: A Tek Jansen Adventure?_🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Drew\_Blade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/958977/32.png) [@Drew\_Blade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drew_Blade)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rating-science-fiction-and-fantasy-publishers/389346/14 "2007-01-26T11:10:30Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] Look, if you’re written a book and want advice about where to pitch it, _tell us everything you can about the book_. I’ve ranted about this a million times, most recently in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=404994), where I compared it to saying, Doctor, I have a pain, What should I do about it? This secretive business wastes everybody’s time. Nobody is going to steal anything from you. Nobody cares about what you’ve written. But the first thing you need to learn about the publishing business is that not all books are alike and nobody alive can give specific advice concerning a generic book. [/QUOTE] I’m not trying to be secretive; I’m just looking for advice, and I appreciate what I’ve gotten. I’ll read the other thread next. ---
**Author:** ![Drew\_Blade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/958977/32.png) [@Drew\_Blade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drew_Blade)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rating-science-fiction-and-fantasy-publishers/389346/15 "2007-01-26T11:27:48Z")
[QUOTE=ITR champion] I’m not sure where your question stands on the spectrum from purely hypothetical to ‘I have the manuscript in hand’. If it’s closer to the later, you should be shopping the manuscript to agents, not to publishers. An agent’s job is to have comprehensive knowledge of publishers large and small and to know the specific likes and dislikes of each. Further, they may be privy to inside information, such as which house is overloaded right now, and which one is specifically in the market for new authors. [/QUOTE] The manuscript is definitely at the “in hand” end of the spectrum–everything done except hitting “print,” and that’s mostly because some websites say “use this font” and some say “use that font.” If I should be looking at agents, then I’ll start looking at agents. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rating-science-fiction-and-fantasy-publishers/389346/16 "2007-01-26T11:52:03Z")
I want to reinforce that. Get thyself an agent. As good a one as will rep you. It will not only get you a better ‘in’ to some publishers but a good agent will also take a look at your text and, if it needs help, will make suggestions based on salability (in my experience, anyway) and such. A good agent will also make a publisher more comfortable with a new author. You, as Joe Blow, will have to work hard to get some attention. Your agent will have contacts at the major publishers he can call and say “Hey, Jimmy! How’s the kids? Dog OK? GREAT! Listen, I got a manuscript from a guy I think you should take a peek at. He’s new, yeah, but he’s got talent.” I haven’t bought books but I’ve certainly bought or approved articles for publication and I’m generally more open to pieces pitched to me from someone I’ve dealt with before. New freelancers who come in the door unsolicited get the ‘We encourage all submissions and will review them for quality and content on our own schedule’ response. I’m just more comfortable with people I know and who have brought me good things in the past, even if the author is a rookie. ---
**Author:** ![Drew\_Blade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/958977/32.png) [@Drew\_Blade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drew_Blade)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rating-science-fiction-and-fantasy-publishers/389346/17 "2007-01-26T12:45:17Z")
OK. To the degree it will help, here’s a short rundown. The book deals with a race of intelligent reptiles alive at the time the asteroid wipes out the dinosaurs. Three young people see something strange, and find that it is a sign that the end of the world is coming. The story tells of their interactions among themselves and with their society as they discover what that means. They each find themselves with unique abilities, and learn that they are expected to do something about the coming Apocalypse. In spite of their best efforts, the world is destroyed, and in just hours after impact there are no survivors left, anywhere in the world. That sounds bleak, and it is. But the book ends with both hope and victory. ---
**Author:** ![DeadlyAccurate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac91a4/32.png) [@DeadlyAccurate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadlyAccurate)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rating-science-fiction-and-fantasy-publishers/389346/18 "2007-01-26T15:35:08Z")
[QUOTE=Drew Blade] If I should be looking at agents, then I’ll start looking at agents. [/QUOTE] Two things: you want an agent with a track record of sales. You also do not pay an agent anything upfront. Agents make a commission on the sale of your book; they do not take money from you. Any agent asking for a fee upfront is probably a scammer. And stay away from PublishAmerica. They’re a reverse vanity publisher. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rating-science-fiction-and-fantasy-publishers/389346/19 "2007-01-26T16:01:24Z")
BTW, not content with purchasing **Atlanta Nights** by Travis Tea – the bad novel written by experts – PublishAmerica happily bought the second worst novel ever written: [Crack of Death](http://www.crackofdeath.com/) by Sharla Tan. Not only don’t they read the books they purchase (something the actually admitted on **Atlanta Nights** ), they don’t even read the name of the author.\* \*When submitted, **Atlanta Nights** used a real person’s name; Travis Tea was created after they withdrew the book – admitting they never read chapter 34. ---
**Author:** ![DeadlyAccurate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac91a4/32.png) [@DeadlyAccurate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadlyAccurate)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rating-science-fiction-and-fantasy-publishers/389346/20 "2007-01-26T16:13:37Z")
Chapter 34 is the chapter created with a paragraph generator, right? I can’t get past the first page of that one. I think I’ve read the first sixty or so pages, though. It’s painful. Really painful. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rating-science-fiction-and-fantasy-publishers/389346.md?page=2)