# Rational analysis, or "Angel" is freaking me out! (DEFINITELY SPOILERS!) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 11, 2003, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rational-analysis-or-angel-is-freaking-me-out-definitely-spoilers/167982 "2003-04-11T05:42:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![joshmaker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a587f6/32.png) [@joshmaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joshmaker)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2003, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rational-analysis-or-angel-is-freaking-me-out-definitely-spoilers/167982/21 "2003-04-12T20:48:56Z")
> [@](#): > > Some might say it’s Columbine High School thinking Which, of course, makes perfect sense.\* Clearly \* the trench coats and not the guns where the primary problem in columbine. Getting back to the topic at hand, Angel has almost always been a very dark show. Remember season two when he aided in the brutal murder of a room full of lawyers and later attempted to loose his soul? Or the frequent flashbacks in season three, like when he sired Holtz’s daughter so that Holtz had to kill her? ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2003, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rational-analysis-or-angel-is-freaking-me-out-definitely-spoilers/167982/22 "2003-04-12T20:49:42Z")
The gaspode > [@](#): > > The initiative, created for the good, turned out to be evil. I disagree with this characterization. The people of the Initiative were not evil. The being which was created by a handful of members of The Initiative, Adam, was evil but even that doesn’t necessarily mean that those people were themselves evil. That’s like saying Samuel Colt was evil because Warren used a gun to kill Tara. ---
**Author:** ![joshmaker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a587f6/32.png) [@joshmaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joshmaker)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2003, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rational-analysis-or-angel-is-freaking-me-out-definitely-spoilers/167982/23 "2003-04-12T20:57:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FallenAngel \* > I hate Lorne \*\*HEATHEN!!! \*\* ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2003, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rational-analysis-or-angel-is-freaking-me-out-definitely-spoilers/167982/24 "2003-04-12T23:03:59Z")
> [@](#): > > I disagree with this characterization. The people of the Initiative were not evil. The being which was created by a handful of members of The Initiative, Adam, was evil but even that doesn’t necessarily mean that those people were themselves evil. That’s like saying Samuel Colt was evil because Warren used a gun to kill Tara. I say they were far too "Nazi"like with their experiments to be considered Good. I know that they were experimenting on the same demons Buffy killed—but it still turns my stomach. Buffy kills demons and vampires to protect the World and considers it a Sacred Duty…but the Intiative crossed the line from “necessary” to “disgustingly creepy”, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Lizard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@Lizard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lizard)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rational-analysis-or-angel-is-freaking-me-out-definitely-spoilers/167982/25 "2003-04-13T06:29:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by joshmaker \* > \*\*Getting back to the topic at hand, Angel has almost always been a very dark show. Remember season two when he aided in the brutal murder of a room full of lawyers and later attempted to loose his soul? Or the frequent flashbacks in season three, like when he sired Holtz’s daughter so that Holtz had to kill her? \*\* I can see your point, but . . . .I don’t know, it still seems like things are different now. Back then, Angel really seemed to be pitched at the same level at BtVS, with cutesy dialogue, cheesy plots, etc. Maybe on average it _was_ darker than BtVS, but I didn’t take it all that seriously. Heck, Angel and the now-dead female lawyer from W&H even had a conversation where said things to the affect of “Now you act tough and I’ll act all scared.” But that is _all_ gone now. The show has become a relentless, grim confrontation with evil. I gotta admit, I like it a lot more this way. Before I just wanted to watch now and then. Now, I HAVE to watch. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rational-analysis-or-angel-is-freaking-me-out-definitely-spoilers/167982/26 "2003-04-13T07:37:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Gaspode \* > \*\* > But it’s not for everyone. Even with a bigger network and a great slot, many people would be turned away by a vampire croaking Mandy in a karaoke bar, run by a green, gay(?), red horned, crooning demon. It doesn’t fit the cliches, the way a show like **Charmed** does. > I think there will be a 5th season and I hope the WB lets Wheadon et al. tell the stories, without interference. This whole messiah/anti-christ is very, very interesting. On par with **Job** , by Robert Heinlein. > \*\* During the trip to Pylea, Lorne took the opportunity to peek while Cordy changed clothes. I’ve always thought that he was bisexual. Anybody remember Millenium? The first seaspn was detective-with-special-insight-solves-murders. From there, it was briefly X files. Eventually, it became a series about an organization that was a major participant in the apocalypse. One episode did feature the AntiChrist. As AC is escorted onto a helicopter, the protagonist yells “Don’t! He’s the deceiver of all mankind!” The last episode of Angel reminded me of that. To me the, most shocking thing was that Fred didn’t shoot Jasmine in the head, thus fulfilling Revelations. ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rational-analysis-or-angel-is-freaking-me-out-definitely-spoilers/167982/27 "2003-04-13T07:48:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FallenAngel \* > \*\*I hate Lorne. Hated him from moment one. Can’t believe he turned into a full-on cast member. I rejoiced when he was decapitated and felt hugely cheated when they put his head back on. > > He really needs to be killed off, if he hasn’t been already. Like I said, I haven’t seen the show in quite a while. \*\* FWIW, I’m right there with you. If there were one character that sums up everything I hate about “Angel,” it’d be… well, Skip, but since he’s dead now it’s Lorne. It just comes off as a desperate attempt to be hip and funny and ironic and it comes off about as well as the hip, backwards-hat-wearing Poochy character on “The Simpsons”. Somebody there thinks it’s just tremendously clever and funny to have scary-looking demons spouting off hipster lingo and they just won’t let it die. It’s probably the same person who thinks it’s still hilariously funny that Angel likes Barry Manilow music. Get it? It’s funny because it’s ironic! I’d given up on the show, and was ready to give it another chance. So the first episode I saw after my hiatus? The first episode with Lorne. I said, “WTF?” and stopped watching again for months. _But_… over the past few months, the show has done a near 180 and it’s become one of my favorites. Consistently great stuff. (Now watch the next episode suck to prove me wrong…) Lorne’s not so annoying now that he’s actually doing stuff instead of just coming on having to try to be funny. (I don’t hate the actor, I hate the material he’s given.) And the show still has mis-steps and jokes that just don’t work, but at least it finally feels like they’re building up to something instead of just wandering around and making everything up as they go along. And PS: I _hate_ Lorne’s singing voice. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Frink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Mr.Frink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Frink)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rational-analysis-or-angel-is-freaking-me-out-definitely-spoilers/167982/28 "2003-04-13T08:30:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FallenAngel \* > \*\* Consider the two timeslot moves: from it’s original Tuesday night slot (okay so 24 would have taken a lot of viewers, but still) to SUNDAY night, almost always a kiss of death move unless you play to the “Murder, She Wrote” demographic, \*\* Actually, a move to Sunday nights is hardly “the kiss of death”. Believe it or not, Sunday nights are #1 in terms of the total number of television viewers. So, even though it was against _Alias_ & _The Sopranos_, there was a larger pool of potential views than on any other night of the week! > [@](#): > > \*\*Those time slots SUCK, and it’s almost guaranteed any show would fare badly. \*\* Hardly. Friday nights is the place they send television shows to die a quick death. It has the lowest number of total viewers. > [@](#): > > \*\*I haven’t seen Angel in so long because I’m rarely home on Sunday nights, and place Angel 3rd on my traditional list of favorite shows, behind West Wing and 24, as a result, I’m always watching something else. > > I think if Angel were on, say, Monday night at 9, it would probably do better. At least I know _I_ would be able to watch it again then. \*\* You’re joking, right? Have you ever heard of a VCR? I don’t think the ratings of _Angel_ would improve if they aired it on a night that was most convenient for you. Seriously though, it’s not really any particular timeslot that has damaged _Angel_’s ratings. It the fact that it’s been moved around so much. It’s very difficult for a show to gain viewer loyalty when it’s juggled around so much. Hopefully if _Angel_ is renewed, they’ll leave well enough alone & keep it locked on Wednesday nights from here on out… ---
**Author:** ![effac3d](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@effac3d](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/effac3d)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rational-analysis-or-angel-is-freaking-me-out-definitely-spoilers/167982/29 "2003-04-13T11:28:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DocCathode \* > \*\*During the trip to Pylea, Lorne took the opportunity to peek while Cordy changed clothes. I’ve always thought that he was bisexual. > > Anybody remember Millenium? The first seaspn was detective-with-special-insight-solves-murders. From there, it was briefly X files. Eventually, it became a series about an organization that was a major participant in the apocalypse. One episode did feature the AntiChrist. As AC is escorted onto a helicopter, the protagonist yells “Don’t! He’s the deceiver of all mankind!” The last episode of Angel reminded me of that. > > To me the, most shocking thing was that Fred didn’t shoot Jasmine in the head, thus fulfilling Revelations. \*\* The anti-christ dies? I don’t see where the show is treading on thin ice exactly,is it suggesting that the messiah and the anti-christ are the same entity? I saw Jasmine more as the same being as Glory,only more powerful(Jasmine can control everyone,not just the mentally ill). If i am missing something really obvious its only because i don’t know a whole lot about christianity. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rational-analysis-or-angel-is-freaking-me-out-definitely-spoilers/167982/30 "2003-04-13T12:08:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by effac3d \* > \*\*The anti-christ dies? > > I don’t see where the show is treading on thin ice exactly,is it suggesting that the messiah and the anti-christ are the same entity? > > I saw Jasmine more as the same being as Glory,only more powerful(Jasmine can control everyone,not just the mentally ill). > > If i am missing something really obvious its only because i don’t know a whole lot about christianity. \*\* Being a ;j I’m not the best informed on all the details of Revelations either. But, IIRC the AC is supposed to survive a mortal shot to the head. I expected the crossbow bolt to shatter against Jasmine’s skin, or for Angel to catch it just as the tip drew blood. The Beast already made the sun (temporarily) as black as sack cloth. For the cliff notes on Revelations, consult one of the Left Behind threads conveniently located in this forum. ---
**Author:** ![Lizard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@Lizard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lizard)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rational-analysis-or-angel-is-freaking-me-out-definitely-spoilers/167982/31 "2003-04-13T16:56:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by effac3d \* > \*\*The anti-christ dies? > > I don’t see where the show is treading on thin ice exactly,is it suggesting that the messiah and the anti-christ are the same entity? > > I saw Jasmine more as the same being as Glory,only more powerful(Jasmine can control everyone,not just the mentally ill). > > If i am missing something really obvious its only because i don’t know a whole lot about christianity. \*\* Jasmine is not supposed to be _the_ Antichrist, but the inspiration for the character is based on him. The dfference is in methodology. As Wesley told Angel before he too came under Jasmine’s influence, the source of her power is enchantment. The Biblical Antichrist is a tool of Satan, but he does not have superhuman power(s) of his own. He is sent to _deceive_ the world. Jasmine, in comparison, is apparently controlling people’s minds. She is engaging in a deception by hiding her true nature, but that is not what the AC is described as doing. He really would be just an ordinary man, in the service of Evil. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rational-analysis-or-angel-is-freaking-me-out-definitely-spoilers/167982/32 "2003-04-13T21:58:24Z")
> [@](#): > > During the trip to Pylea, Lorne took the opportunity to peek while Cordy changed clothes. I’ve always thought that he was bisexual. There’s still a lot of nature v. nurture debate over what makes people gay: wether it’s a product of social upbringing, or a built in part of human biology. With that in mind, note that Lorne does not have human biology, nor was he raised in a human society. Debating wether Lorne is homosexual is pointless, because homosexuality is a part of _human_ sexuality. For all we know, Lorne might reproduce asexually, meaning he has no gender, and no gender preference. Or his species might have only one gender, making _everyone_ homosexual. Or his species might have fifteen genders, making dating very confusing, I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2003, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rational-analysis-or-angel-is-freaking-me-out-definitely-spoilers/167982/33 "2003-04-14T03:41:25Z")
Er, did I miss Lorne checking out some guys at some point? When did people start thinking he was gay? ---
**Author:** ![Lizard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@Lizard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lizard)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2003, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rational-analysis-or-angel-is-freaking-me-out-definitely-spoilers/167982/34 "2003-04-14T16:06:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by robertliguori \* > \*\*Er, did I miss Lorne checking out some guys at some point? When did people start thinking he was gay? \*\* Probably just because he acts a little effete. His character hits a couple of gay stereotypes: works in showbiz, has a high-pitched singing voice, never acts macho, has a keen sense of fashion, gets along with women well, uses pet names for people like “sugar,” etc. Personally, what some people call “acting gay,” I call “having a personality.” Gay or straight, Lorne is an interesting character. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rational-analysis-or-angel-is-freaking-me-out-definitely-spoilers/167982.md?page=1)