# Rationally speaking, is the murder of Charlie Kirk worth worrying over more than the murders of kids in schools? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 11, 2025, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rationally-speaking-is-the-murder-of-charlie-kirk-worth-worrying-over-more-than-the-murders-of-kids-in-schools/1022949 "2025-09-11T14:44:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2025, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rationally-speaking-is-the-murder-of-charlie-kirk-worth-worrying-over-more-than-the-murders-of-kids-in-schools/1022949/81 "2025-09-16T01:39:30Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > No need for quotes. Of course there is. You say there is someone you knew who was fired because they were arguing for active shooter drills? Sounds strange but fine. You say that a few months later five people died in a shooting incident at that school? The events are across the country both way too frequent, worryingly trending upwards, albeit a bit of a drop in the ‘24 to ‘25 school year, but still on an absolute basis rare. But fine. Clearly they happen. There have been none in the United States with five deaths since 2014 per [Wiki](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States_by_death_toll) but Wiki could be wrong or the number could be wrong in the retelling. Or maybe it wasn’t at a school and is actually somewhat immaterial to the discussion? So. Fine. Someone was fired for advocating for active shooter drills and then there was an incident that some number died in. Accept that as truth. What deserves quotes is your stating as “truth” that doing active shooter drills would have prevented any deaths in that episode. Again there is no evidence to support that belief. I recognize that you believe it would but that is at best your guess at an alternate history, not “truth” in any sense. Teachers being trained on what to do and what to tell their kids to do? (“Run hide fight” in preference order is the standard.) Sure. Things that cause harms like active shooter drills do, or reasonably might, like armed teachers might, are not a rational actions. Rationally we have to recognize [this](https://www.stanfordchildrens.org/en/about/news/releases/2021/firearm-injuries-in-children-teens-costly-for-us-health-care-system) - > Although gun deaths from school shootings and other mass-casualty incidents are widely publicized, most pediatric gun injuries occur less publicly, often when children accidentally discharge firearms they locate and handle without their parents’ knowledge. … Unintentional discharge. Assault outside the home and not in school. Domestic violence. They don’t get the headline but that’s where the child gun deaths occur overwhelmingly. The rise in school mass shootings and as an expression of political hate is very worrying on both counts, and I suspect they have minimally overlapping root causes. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2025, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rationally-speaking-is-the-murder-of-charlie-kirk-worth-worrying-over-more-than-the-murders-of-kids-in-schools/1022949/82 "2025-09-16T01:53:25Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > You say there is someone you knew who was fired because they were arguing for active shooter drills? Sounds strange but fine. Oh no, not dismissed as in fired. Dismissed as in ignored. Advocated for active shooter training. Manager said no because it would upset people. Six weeks later, 5 people dead from a workplace shoot. > [@DSeid](#): > > You say that a few months later five people died in a shooting incident at that school? Where did I say a school? > [@DSeid](#): > > What deserves quotes is your stating as “truth” that doing active shooter drills would have prevented any deaths in that episode. As opposed to not doing any. How did that help? > [@DSeid](#): > > Teachers being trained on what to do and what to tell their kids to do? (“Run hide fight” in preference order is the standard.) Sure. Which gets back to the first point I raised long ago - we are **not** trained in proper protocols. > [@DSeid](#): > > like armed teachers might, Oh God no. Not that. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2025, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rationally-speaking-is-the-murder-of-charlie-kirk-worth-worrying-over-more-than-the-murders-of-kids-in-schools/1022949/83 "2025-09-16T02:04:08Z")
Workplace training is a _bit_ of a different issue than grade school active shooter drills, which was the subject of discussion, school shootings Yeah we have annual HR compliance education modules. Sexual harassment. HIPPA. OSHA compliance. Violence in the workplace. So on. “Run hide fight” is an every year answer the multiple choice. Not active drills taking away from our office hours. And we are all adults. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2025, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rationally-speaking-is-the-murder-of-charlie-kirk-worth-worrying-over-more-than-the-murders-of-kids-in-schools/1022949/84 "2025-09-16T02:08:33Z")
From the standpoint of morality, school shootings are of much greater concern than the death of one of the worst human beings alive; from the viewpoint of potential larger consequences the killing of Kirk _is_ worth worrying about. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > As opposed to not doing any. How did that help? Gun control and eliminating “gun culture” would help. And that’ s about it, everything else is “re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic” levels of futility. Literal soldiers have been killed in shootings by angry coworkers; _no amount_ of training teachers and kids will help. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2025, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rationally-speaking-is-the-murder-of-charlie-kirk-worth-worrying-over-more-than-the-murders-of-kids-in-schools/1022949/85 "2025-09-16T02:10:16Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Workplace training is a _bit_ of a different issue than grade school active shooter drills, which was the subject of discussion, school shootings Actually, it was we can’t have drills because they are too traumatizing which is the attitude of not only schools but also workplaces. We have drills at my school which are basically take cover out of sight and lock the door. Sometimes an administrator will knock to see if the teacher opens it. Staff walk around to see if the blinds are drawn. Ain’t never had a student break down from the drill yet. But here is the strange thing. We do those drills at school but yet we don’t talk to our students (well I do) about what to do if they are in the hallway during a shooting because **that** is too traumatizing. WTF?! ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2025, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rationally-speaking-is-the-murder-of-charlie-kirk-worth-worrying-over-more-than-the-murders-of-kids-in-schools/1022949/86 "2025-09-16T02:19:07Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Actually, it was we can’t have drills because they are too traumatizing which is the attitude of not only schools but also workplaces. Nah. I would object to shutting down my office to run a shooter drill because I don’t want to waste my or my staff’s time. I’m there to take care of patients. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2025, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rationally-speaking-is-the-murder-of-charlie-kirk-worth-worrying-over-more-than-the-murders-of-kids-in-schools/1022949/87 "2025-09-16T02:23:53Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Nah. I would object to shutting down my office to run a shooter drill because I don’t want to waste my or my staff’s time. I agree. It’s wasting time worrying about a low-probability scenario, and is unlikely to actually help anyway. Especially given that the shooter themself will have most likely gone through the same drills and know exactly what people have been trained to do. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2025, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rationally-speaking-is-the-murder-of-charlie-kirk-worth-worrying-over-more-than-the-murders-of-kids-in-schools/1022949/88 "2025-09-16T07:20:35Z")
I think we’ve established you Yanks don’t give a fuck about school shootings. What is worrying is the deification of an asshole like Kirk and the wave of firings of people who spoke out against him. Especially troubling is hoisting him up as a champion of free speech while he made a living out of fighting against free speech. And that people are getting away with spouting such bullshit. You truly live in a post-facts society. Thankfully the American public is again obeying in advance. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2025, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rationally-speaking-is-the-murder-of-charlie-kirk-worth-worrying-over-more-than-the-murders-of-kids-in-schools/1022949/89 "2025-09-16T11:08:33Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > I think we’ve established you Yanks don’t give a fuck about school shootings. I think the opposite. We care much about them than all the other gun deaths every day. These specific horrible needless deaths register because nice middle and upper middle class folk see kids like their kids harmed by something out of their control. The unsecured gun in the house is a bigger risk, but it is a decision they have control over so it doesn’t bother. The deaths in the poorer parts of the community, not their kids. There is a fair amount of “worry” expressed here about the killing of people based on views and what they represent, as potential catalyst for violence against others, civil war, suppressing speech … I am more worried by the way it is part of our entertainment stream. The way pathetically mentally ill Luigi Mangione became a folk hero for murdering a symbol of the evil health insurance companies celebrated by many, not just this one alone. It’s cut of the same cloth. The same cloth that robes those who shoot representative who they think are too woke and shoot up the CDC and those who even just quietly think “good” when it happens As a society we lean to being sick fucks. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2025, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rationally-speaking-is-the-murder-of-charlie-kirk-worth-worrying-over-more-than-the-murders-of-kids-in-schools/1022949/90 "2025-09-16T11:54:50Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > More than it already has/is/will be? More than the right desires it to be? I highly doubt it. For the most part, it isn’t the left that riles up the shooters. You seem fairly committed to your “they were going to be exactly as awful no matter what” view, but I’ll try one final time to illustrate what I mean. When we had 9/11, there were a handful of vigilantes who committed hate crimes against random Muslims. The victims of those hate crimes probably wouldn’t have been killed if 9/11 didn’t happen. In 1942, the high ranking Nazi official Reinhard Heydrich was assassinated in Prague. In retaliation, the Nazis blamed local partisans from the village of Lidice. They massacred 340 people, and razed the village to the ground. Sure, they were Nazis, and they were doing horrible things anyway. But the reason they chose **that particular village** to destroy rather than somewhere else had something to do with Heydrich being killed. The universe where Heydrich was assassinated looks a little bit different from the alternate universe where he wasn’t assassinated. If the shooter were transgender, we would see an increased chance of transgender people being targeted. I think to deny that is to deny human nature, and cause and effect. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2025, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rationally-speaking-is-the-murder-of-charlie-kirk-worth-worrying-over-more-than-the-murders-of-kids-in-schools/1022949/91 "2025-09-16T14:20:30Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > Especially troubling is hoisting him up as a champion of free speech while he made a living out of fighting against free speech. And that people are getting away with spouting such bullshit. In what way was he making a living fighting against free speech? I want to check because I’ve heard a lot of bullshit spoken about Charlie Kirk since his death. Two prominent people already had to apologise for claiming he wanted to stone gays. * * * > [@DSeid](#): > > I am more worried by the way it is part of our entertainment stream. The way pathetically mentally ill Luigi Mangione became a folk hero for murdering a symbol of the evil health insurance companies celebrated by many, not just this one alone. It’s cut of the same cloth. The same cloth that robes those who shoot representative who they think are too woke and shoot up the CDC and those who even just quietly think “good” when it happens This is unfortunately true. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2025, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rationally-speaking-is-the-murder-of-charlie-kirk-worth-worrying-over-more-than-the-murders-of-kids-in-schools/1022949/92 "2025-09-16T15:34:39Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Two prominent people already had to apologise for claiming he wanted to stone gays. And who would they be? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2025, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rationally-speaking-is-the-murder-of-charlie-kirk-worth-worrying-over-more-than-the-murders-of-kids-in-schools/1022949/93 "2025-09-16T15:42:54Z")
This was right-on-right violence, which was preceded by much more right-on-left violence, and was very quickly followed by attacks by the right on the left for both daring to have different opinions about the sainthood of Charlie Kirk and opening calling for attacks on the left using the false claims about how they killed Kirk. I have seen absolutely nothing by anyone prominent that even hints that violence by the left will increase. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2025, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rationally-speaking-is-the-murder-of-charlie-kirk-worth-worrying-over-more-than-the-murders-of-kids-in-schools/1022949/94 "2025-09-16T15:50:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And who would they be? Stephen King was one. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2025, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rationally-speaking-is-the-murder-of-charlie-kirk-worth-worrying-over-more-than-the-murders-of-kids-in-schools/1022949/95 "2025-09-16T15:57:27Z")
That was a misattributed quote that King passed on. He rightly took it down and apologized. Kirk had said enough awful things IRL. He doesn’t need to get blamed for made-up things. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2025, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rationally-speaking-is-the-murder-of-charlie-kirk-worth-worrying-over-more-than-the-murders-of-kids-in-schools/1022949/96 "2025-09-16T16:18:53Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > > [@Czarcasm](#): > > > > And who would they be? > > Stephen King was one. Alistair Campbell is the other one I’ve seen. Spin doctor for the old New Labour government, and most famous for ‘sexing up’ the dossier used to claim Saddam had weapons of mass destruction and justify joining in the Iraq war. So spreading misinformation is on-brand for him. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2025, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rationally-speaking-is-the-murder-of-charlie-kirk-worth-worrying-over-more-than-the-murders-of-kids-in-schools/1022949/97 "2025-09-16T16:22:48Z")
I don’t recall asking “And who, from other countries and in the not even recent past, might they be?” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2025, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rationally-speaking-is-the-murder-of-charlie-kirk-worth-worrying-over-more-than-the-murders-of-kids-in-schools/1022949/98 "2025-09-16T16:23:11Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I think the opposite Based on what? People who give a fuck do something. What has the US done? > [@DemonTree](#): > > In what way was he making a living fighting against free speech? His little club created the “Professor Watchlist“. I cannot see that list as anything different than attacking those professors’ right to free speech. Kirk was paid by rich backers to roll out/promote their radical racist, I dare say, fascist agenda. So in a very real way he made his money by attacking others’ free speech. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2025, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rationally-speaking-is-the-murder-of-charlie-kirk-worth-worrying-over-more-than-the-murders-of-kids-in-schools/1022949/99 "2025-09-16T16:30:49Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Kids are overwhelmingly currently safer from violence while in school than in their homes or pretty much anywhere else. True story. No argument about that. But kids are safer from fires in their schools than at home. Are you in favor of eliminating fire drills also? Do you have fire drills in your office? Again, I was safer from fire at work than at home, but we still had fire drills. A quick Google reveals that 88% of fire deaths of children are at home, bur recently there have been less than 1 child fire death at schools per year. I’m pretty sure children are more likely to get shot at school than to burn. I haven’t investigated enough to see if fire drills are part of the reason for the low death rate from fire. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2025, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rationally-speaking-is-the-murder-of-charlie-kirk-worth-worrying-over-more-than-the-murders-of-kids-in-schools/1022949/100 "2025-09-16T16:55:47Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > Based on what? > People who give a fuck do something. > What has the US done? People are in fact doing things. Stupid ineffective things. Giving a fuck doesn’t necessarily correlate with making rational or effective choices. They wring their hands. They worry. They are spending lots of money and time. The school shooter industry is billions of dollars strong. [https://www.npr.org/2025/09/08/nx-s1-5317647/school-shooting-industry](https://www.npr.org/2025/09/08/nx-s1-5317647/school-shooting-industry) > In the wake of those shootings, an industry has emerged to try to protect schools — and business is booming. According to the market research firm Omdia, the school security industry is now worth as much as $4 billion, and it’s projected to keep growing. > > “The school safety and security industry has grown rapidly over the past decade,” says Sonali Rajan, senior director with the research arm of Everytown for Gun Safety, which advocates for gun control. “The challenge right now is that these school safety products, the vast majority, have absolutely no evidence guiding their effectiveness.” They do active shooter drills. Which also have absolutely no evidence of helping in any way and real evidence of harms. (The difference @Voyager - a balance of benefits vs harms - and no we don’t have office fire drills.) They in some states are arming teachers. Something likely to cause more harm than good. They are _doing_ _something …_ but its efficacy is at most for anxiety relief not actually reducing childhood gun deaths, either overall or even in schools. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rationally-speaking-is-the-murder-of-charlie-kirk-worth-worrying-over-more-than-the-murders-of-kids-in-schools/1022949.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rationally-speaking-is-the-murder-of-charlie-kirk-worth-worrying-over-more-than-the-murders-of-kids-in-schools/1022949.md?page=6)