# Rats in the Guinness Brewery **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 5, 2004, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rats-in-the-guinness-brewery/232669 "2004-03-05T07:29:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![almightyis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@almightyis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/almightyis)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2004, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rats-in-the-guinness-brewery/232669/1 "2004-03-05T07:29:02Z")
ok, my friend told me a story about how the Guinness brewery once found a whole bunch of dead rats in their beer vats after draining them. they cleaned them out, but when people tasted the new batch, it tasted like crap, so now Guinness puts meat (not rat) into the beer to give it that down-home-Irish-roadkill taste. now, i love Guinness, but that kinda disturbs me, and i can’t find anything to prove or refute it. anybody know anything about this? ---
**Author:** ![trabi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecae2f/32.png) [@trabi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/trabi)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2004, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rats-in-the-guinness-brewery/232669/2 "2004-03-05T08:07:14Z")
Sounds like complete bollocks to me. ---
**Author:** ![Ponster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponster/32/17081_2.png) [@Ponster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponster)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2004, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rats-in-the-guinness-brewery/232669/3 "2004-03-05T08:58:28Z")
Dropkick Murphys - Good Rats "Have you ever stopped to think about what rats do for run? Sure they crawl around and scurry, Yeah they’re always on the run but a rat sure likes a good time Just like you and me I’ll prove it with a tale about a rat - infested brewery It started with a little lad named vermin McCann Who fell upon a drink that made him feel like quite a man He rounded up his furry boys, Though some wore a frown They quickly changed their tune and they slammed a couple down. [Chorus:] One, two, one - two - three - four! Come on all you good rats We’ll send you to heaven you’ll find the pearly gates in the froth and the foam 'cause in these vats you’ve made quite a creation A potion that turned the Guinness to gold! Like mice behind a piper, Rats from all around soon headed for this factory in old Dublin Town. They surely heard the news about this fancy new rat - brew they come, They saw, they had a taste and knocked back a few The rats were in a tizzy Addicted to the bone the hairy lugs were giddy They were never going home Like a bunch of drunken pirates prepared to walk the plank they drank, They sang, they took a plunge and in the beer they sank!" I can’t remember the amount of times I’ve seen this one though in Ireland I remember hearing that it was goats instead of rats (what the goats were doing there in the first place was never explained) 🙂 Don’t have any official cites from Guinness to deny the legend but you wouldn’t think they’d have to comment on such crap. [http://www.snopes.com/message/ultimatebb.php?/ubb/get\_topic/f/58/t/000424.html#000000](http://www.snopes.com/message/ultimatebb.php?/ubb/get_topic/f/58/t/000424.html#000000) [http://www.snopes.com/message/ultimatebb.php?/ubb/get\_topic/f/58/t/000298.html#000000](http://www.snopes.com/message/ultimatebb.php?/ubb/get_topic/f/58/t/000298.html#000000) ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2004, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rats-in-the-guinness-brewery/232669/4 "2004-03-05T09:04:20Z")
I worked in the brewery. So did my father. The story is complete balls. There is no meat added to the brew. Successive head brewers have taken an extremely dim view of suggestions that _anything_ should be added apart from water, yeast, hops, barley and malt. I can’t put my hand on my heart and say that no rat has ever been found in the brew since 1759, but I have never heard of it happening. ---
**Author:** ![zapomel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/67e7ee/32.png) [@zapomel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zapomel)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2004, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rats-in-the-guinness-brewery/232669/5 "2004-03-05T14:25:07Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > I worked in the brewery. So did my father. > > The story is complete balls. There is no meat added to the brew. Successive head brewers have taken an extremely dim view of suggestions that _anything_ should be added apart from water, yeast, hops, barley and malt. I can’t put my hand on my heart and say that no rat has ever been found in the brewince 1759, but I have never heard of it happening. Well, since I’m on line, and since I really hate Guinness, I’d just like to point out that they add NITROGEN to Guinness. I suppose that’s technically a “natural ingredient”, but I take a dim view of any beer that has to get its head by pumping in air. Sorry to be such a nit, but since you’re talking about "water, barley, etc, you might find time to mention the nitrogen aeration. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2004, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rats-in-the-guinness-brewery/232669/6 "2004-03-05T16:15:31Z")
I’ve heard they keep pieces of Alec Guiness in the vats. Sorry no cite 😉 . ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2004, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rats-in-the-guinness-brewery/232669/7 "2004-03-05T16:24:21Z")
I’ve heard the same story related to [Cider.](http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea/nitro.htm) I always wondered what those bits in the bottom of a pint of scrumpy were… :eek: ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2004, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rats-in-the-guinness-brewery/232669/8 "2004-03-05T16:31:58Z")
> [@](#): > > …so now Guinness puts meat (not rat) into the beer to give it that down-home-Irish-roadkill taste. Brilliant! ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2004, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rats-in-the-guinness-brewery/232669/9 "2004-03-05T16:35:45Z")
> [@zapomel](#): > > Well, since I’m on line, and since I really hate Guinness, I’d just like to point out that they add NITROGEN to Guinness. I suppose that’s technically a “natural ingredient”, but I take a dim view of any beer that has to get its head by pumping in air. Sorry to be such a nit, but since you’re talking about "water, barley, etc, you might find time to mention the nitrogen aeration. All this proves is that you are an idiot. Nitrogen is used to dispense Guinness. It is no more an ingredient than the plastic tube is an ingredient in your toothpaste! Note that no beer lists carbon dioxide as an ingredient, yet it is the natural byproduct of yeast fermentation, and what gives beer its fizz. ---
**Author:** ![Pythagras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/45deac/32.png) [@Pythagras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pythagras)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2004, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rats-in-the-guinness-brewery/232669/10 "2004-03-05T17:53:15Z")
This story probably came about because of the relative thickness/heaviness of Guiness relative to modern beers. However, it should be pointed out that beer from medeival times and earlier tended to be even thicker and heavier than guiness, my Roman history professor says ‘soupy’. Beer was way to preserve a high calorie item for the poorer folks. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2004, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rats-in-the-guinness-brewery/232669/11 "2004-03-05T18:04:30Z")
> [@Pythagras](#): > > This story probably came about because of the relative thickness/heaviness of Guiness relative to modern beers. But Guinness ISN’T thicker/heavier than modern beers!!! Take a look at a “Black and Tan” or a “Half and Half.” Which beverage is floating at the top? Guinness. The specific gravity of Guinness is LESS than that of Harp Lager or Bass Ale. The idea that Guinness is thick/heavy is one put about by people with atrophied taste buds. Guinness is the Nectar of the Gods. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2004, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rats-in-the-guinness-brewery/232669/12 "2004-03-05T18:09:25Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > … Guinness is the Nectar of the Gods. 😃 …so Ambrosia is a packet of cheese & onion crisps? ---
**Author:** ![mrklutz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ebca7d/32.png) [@mrklutz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrklutz)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2004, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rats-in-the-guinness-brewery/232669/13 "2004-03-05T18:13:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by **Zapomel** > _I’d just like to point out that they add NITROGEN to Guinness. I suppose that’s technically a “natural ingredient”, but I take a dim view of any beer that has to get its head by pumping in air._ Well, I have a wee bit of a revelation for you, Zapomel. Unless the beer you’re drinking has a layer of yeast sediment at the bottom, it got its head because the maker pumped in a gas, usually CO2. Carbonation by fermentation is still used in homebrewing, but I have yet to run across a commercial beer that uses it. Carbonation by use of forced gas is much more economical and controllable if you’re working on a brewery scale. (Even we homebrewers are known to use that method. Kegging is _so_ much easier than bottling.) And, of course, there’s the fact that most people prefer not to have a layer of yeast at the bottom of their bottle. As to the OP, I have this to say: [brownie] You and that stupid rat dream! [/brownie] Seriously, why do people believe urban legends like this? What is this strange fascination with stories of grotesque things in our food and drink? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2004, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rats-in-the-guinness-brewery/232669/14 "2004-03-05T18:28:44Z")
> [@mrklutz](#): > > Carbonation by fermentation is still used in homebrewing, but I have yet to run across a commercial beer that uses it. **Sierra Nevada.** Also, quite a few Belgian beers use a different yeast for priming than they do for fermenting. ---
**Author:** ![zapomel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/67e7ee/32.png) [@zapomel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zapomel)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2004, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rats-in-the-guinness-brewery/232669/15 "2004-03-05T23:20:09Z")
Well I have learned something. I was unaware that ALL my beer was being aerated. (However, since you called me an idiot, I’d just like to restate that I really really hate Guinness.) But now, even if you’re gonna be all snippy anyway, keep explaining this, because I’m curious. Okay, so they aerate all the beer, usually with carbon dioxide but occasionally with nitrogen in the case of really particularly dreadfully awful beers. But beer is thousands of years old. Surely aeration with CO2 can’t be pre-industrial. So when did they start doing that? And what was the beer like in the days before they did that? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2004, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rats-in-the-guinness-brewery/232669/16 "2004-03-05T23:55:33Z")
BLASPHEMER!!! 😛 As I sit here sipping a Guinness… If you want an idea of what beer tasted like before they jacked all of that CO2 into it, find a pub that serves “real ale.” Look for a CAMRA sign in Britain, or ask your publican. These are hand-pumped and naturally carbonated. All fermented beverages produce CO2 when they ferment. It’s what causes bread to rise, and wort to bubble. If you bottle it before it finishes, the CO2 goes into the beer, carbonating it. Before reliable pressure seals were invented, beer was corked, like some Belgian beers are to this very day, or just quaffed flat. We have just gotten used to beer that brings belches. Fritz Maytag of Achor Brewing in San Francisco once replicated an Egyptian beer using a hyroglyphic recipe. By all accounts, it was “flat, sour and weak.” ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2004, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rats-in-the-guinness-brewery/232669/17 "2004-03-06T00:18:07Z")
From _Ulysses_: > [@](#): > > Be interesting some day get a pass through Hancock to see the brewery. Regular world in itself. Vats of porter, wonderful. Rats get in too. Drink themselves bloated as big as a collie floating. Dead drunk on the porter. Drink till they puke again like christians. Imagine drinking that! Rats: vats. Well of course if we knew all the things. ---
**Author:** ![zapomel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/67e7ee/32.png) [@zapomel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zapomel)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2004, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rats-in-the-guinness-brewery/232669/18 "2004-03-06T01:43:21Z")
Blasphemer… yes, that’s definitely preferable. Hope you enjoyed your brew, Silenus, and to each his own. this thread is excellent. Now I know about Real Ale too. I’d heard of CAMRA, but didn’t know the details. And I’ll definitely try it out the next time I’m over there. Thanks. And there’s even a Joycean on this thread. Now there’s an Irish export I’m sold on. And speaking of strong drink: —When I makes tea I makes tea, as old mother Grogan said. And when I makes water I makes water. —By Jove, it is tea, Haines said. Buck Mulligan went on hewing and wheedling: —SO I DO, MRS CAHILL, says she. BEGOB, MA’AM, says Mrs Cahill, GOD SEND YOU DON’T MAKE THEM IN THE ONE POT. ---
**Author:** ![Mathochist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@Mathochist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mathochist)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2004, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rats-in-the-guinness-brewery/232669/19 "2004-03-06T11:00:54Z")
> [@Biffy the Elephant Shrew](#): > > From _Ulysses_: Be interesting some day get a pass through Hancock to see the brewery. Regular world in itself. Vats of porter, wonderful. Rats get in too. Drink themselves bloated as big as a collie floating. Dead drunk on the porter. Drink till they puke again like christians. Imagine drinking that! Rats: vats. Well of course if we knew all the things. You can’t seriously take this as a factual account. The passage in particular (near the beginning of chapter 8, for those of you who haven’t read the book) is part of Bloom’s interior monologue which is shot through with inaccuracies and misrememberings all day. This anecdote of his is – within the novel – basically his memory of an urban legend. On a critical level as well, it can’t be taken as a Joyce-believed factual detail because it’s meant to set the stage for Bloom’s mistrust of modern food preparation and delivery systems and, symbolically, the shift from pastoral Ireland to industrialized (“Englishized”) Ireland. Of course, that’s exactly the role the urban legend plays in real life as well; and though great writers include ignorance and superstition in their characters Cecil is around to stamp it out. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2004, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rats-in-the-guinness-brewery/232669/20 "2004-03-06T16:22:18Z")
> [@mrklutz](#): > > Seriously, why do people believe urban legends like this? What is this strange fascination with stories of grotesque things in our food and drink? Because there are grotesque things in our food and drink? A few such things I can recall right now; Part of a processing implement in a can of green beans. A _very_ long human hair in a Boston Market frozen dinner. What looked like the tip (3/4 in.) of a fillet knife in a can of Bumble Bee tuna. Various bugs, etc. Yes, **mrklutz** , there is “stuff” in our food and drink. Usually benign, but there. 🙂 Peace, mangeorge [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rats-in-the-guinness-brewery/232669.md?page=2)