# Raven or Crow
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/299019
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [April 12, 2005, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/299019 "2005-04-12T21:27:49Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@teapot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/teapot)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2005, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/299019/1 "2005-04-12T21:27:49Z")
This is my first time here and I have looked in the archive but have not found the answer I am looking for. Can anyone answer this question?..
What is the difference between a crow and a raven?
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### Author:  [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2005, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/299019/2 "2005-04-12T21:47:40Z")
This site gives a[short description](http://www.mbr-pwrc.usgs.gov/id/framlst/i4860id.html) of the differences.
I should add that crows tent to congregate in flocks and their call is a repeated “caw, caw, caw, caw.”
Ravens are more solitary or paired up, although you occasionally will see groups. The raven’s call is more an “aark” and isn’t usually rapidly repeated.
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### Author:  [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2005, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/299019/3 "2005-04-12T21:59:42Z")
Also, unpleasant as it might be, I’d rather be locked in a room with an unkindness of ravens than with a murder of crows.
–Cliffy
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### Author:  [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2005, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/299019/4 "2005-04-13T05:23:42Z")
**David Simmons** is right; the call is the thing. And, if the bird calls, “nevermore,” it ain’t a crow, baby.
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### Author:  [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2005, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/299019/5 "2005-04-13T05:41:18Z")
The link is understating the size difference. I’ve had crows around all my life, and had the same question as the OP until I saw the ravens at the Tower of London. I would suspect that, seen side by side, the sheer size discrepancy alone would render confusion impossible. Ravens are huge.
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### Author:  [@Rayne\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayne_Man)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2005, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/299019/6 "2005-04-13T06:34:43Z")
> [@David Simmons](#):
>
> This site gives a[short description](http://www.mbr-pwrc.usgs.gov/id/framlst/i4860id.html) of the differences.
>
> I should add that crows tent to congregate in flocks and their call is a repeated “caw, caw, caw, caw.”
>
> Ravens are more solitary or paired up, although you occasionally will see groups. The raven’s call is more an “aark” and isn’t usually rapidly repeated.
That is different in the UK. Crows tend to be solitary. Rooks are the ones that are seen in large groups and build their nests close together. These nests , usually built in the tops of tall trees, is called a rookery. Ravens are bigger than either crows or rooks.
There is a saying ." if you see lots of crows together they are rooks . If you see a single rook , it’s a crow"
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### Author:  [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2005, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/299019/7 "2005-04-13T06:52:34Z")
From what I can gather based on a quick search our crow is related to your rook while the European crow is a different bird and is often referred to as the carrion crow.
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### Author:  [@John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Kentzel-Griffin)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2005, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/299019/8 "2005-04-13T06:57:43Z")
> [@teapot](#):
>
> What is the difference between a crow and a raven?
A crow is not like a writing desk.
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### Author:  [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2005, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/299019/9 "2005-04-13T07:01:31Z")
> [@DrMatrix](#):
>
> > [@teapot](#):
> >
> > What is the difference between a crow and a raven?
>
> A crow is not like a writing desk.
Whereas a raven is not like an inkwell.
All clear now?
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### Author:  [@Rayne\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayne_Man)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2005, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/299019/10 "2005-04-13T07:14:15Z")
Here is some information I have managed to find after a quick Google
BBC web-site :-
_Rooks belong to the corvid family which in this country includes crows, ravens, magpies, jackdaws, jays and choughs. This large family of birds, species of which are found throughout the world, are thought of as being slightly smarter than the rest._
And [Corvids](http://www.naturegrid.org.uk/biodiversity/birds/crow.htm)
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### Author:  [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2005, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/299019/11 "2005-04-13T12:03:33Z")
> [@Rayne Man](#):
>
> Here is some information I have managed to find after a quick Google
>
> BBC web-site :-
>
> _Rooks belong to the corvid family which in this country includes crows, ravens, magpies, jackdaws, jays and choughs. This large family of birds, species of which are found throughout the world, are thought of as being slightly smarter than the rest._
>
> And [Corvids](http://www.naturegrid.org.uk/biodiversity/birds/crow.htm)
According to the OED crow in northern England, Scotland and Ireland refers to the bird that elswhere in the UK is called rook. The reference also states that the rook and the US crow are “closely related.”
I was at a US Army Replacement Depot at Stoke-on-Trent in WWII and thought it was pretty far north in England. The change in terminology must be even further north than that.
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### Author:  [@rjk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjk)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2005, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/299019/12 "2005-04-13T14:49:14Z")
> [@Rayne Man](#):
>
> Here is some information I have managed to find after a quick Google
>
> BBC web-site :-
>
> _Rooks belong to the corvid family which in this country includes crows, ravens, magpies, jackdaws, jays and choughs. This large family of birds, species of which are found throughout the world, are thought of as being **slightly smarter** than the rest._
>
> And [Corvids](http://www.naturegrid.org.uk/biodiversity/birds/crow.htm)
According to an article in the January 1999 issue of National Geographic (unfortunately not online), ravens are a lot more than _slightly_ smarter than other birds. It’s worth looking for a paper copy.
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2005, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/299019/13 "2005-04-13T14:55:39Z")
[Previous thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=55609).
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### Author:  [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2005, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/299019/14 "2005-04-13T15:10:41Z")
> [@David Simmons](#):
>
> From what I can gather based on a quick search our crow is related to your rook while the European crow is a different bird and is often referred to as the carrion crow.
The genus _Corvus_ contains 41 species, which are variously known as crows (29 species), ravens (9 species), jackdaws (2 species), and rooks (1 species). The common names can’t be used as a guide to relationships within the genus, except for the two jackdaws; the various species of “ravens,” as far as I know, are not particularly closely related to one another, and some may be more closely related to species of crows.
The term “raven” was originally applied to the largest species of Europe, the Common Raven _Corvus corax_. This same species is also the largest member of the genus in North America. Elsewhere, larger species have tended to be called ravens and smaller ones crows, though this is not absolute. The Rook _C. frugilegus_ happens to be a relatively distinctive species of Eurasia.
In North America, there are five species of crows, differing mainly in call, the most widespread being the American Crow _C. brachyrhynchos_, plus the Common Raven and Chihuahuan Raven _C. cryptoleucus._ There are another five crows in the West Indies and one in Hawaii.
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### Author:  [@Rayne\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayne_Man)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2005, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/299019/15 "2005-04-13T15:53:22Z")
For some reason there are lots of superstitions surrounding another member of the crow family, the magpie (pica pica) in the UK. You are supposed to say “good morning mr(s) Magpie” if you see one ,and a lone bird is considered to be unlucky. There is also a rhyme which is tells you your future depending how many of them you see together.
\*One for sorrow
Two for joy
Three for a girl (or marriage)
Four for a boy
Five for silver
Six for gold
Seven for a secret
Never to be told \*
They also have a bad reputation as bird killers , the decline of blackbirds and thrushes has been blamed on them but actual evidence is unproven. As to their smartness, they have been observed to unlock rabbit cages to steal food and they can be taught to say words in the manner of a parrot. And everyone as heard of the Thieving Magpie
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2005, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/299019/16 "2005-04-13T15:57:53Z")
Ravens can be quite useful. For example, they keep the Tower of London from crumbling.
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### Author:  [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2005, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/299019/17 "2005-04-13T15:59:27Z")
How to tell them apart:
As noted, there’s no overlap between the calls. Crows seem to make noise more of the time, but occasionally they’re both silent.
There’s no overlap in size, but unless the two will stand next to each other, size is notoriously deceptive.
Ravens are more likely to be solitary, but are occasionally seen in small groups and (rarely) in large ones. Crows love to mob together.
The most commonly mentioned field mark is the shape of the tail (Crow = straight across, Raven = more “wedge” shaped) but I’ve never found this as useful as some suggest.
One good clue is their flying styles. Ravens are good soaring birds and will often go for a long time without flapping. Crows apparently hate to glide, and rarely go more than about 5 seconds without flapping.
For a very interesting book on Ravens, check out _The Mind of the Raven_ by Bernd Heinrich.
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### Author:  [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2005, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/299019/18 "2005-04-13T17:23:15Z")
The raven (or “Raven”, as he is referred to here in Alaska) is an amazing creature. It’s not by chance that the Tlingit tribe’s folklore includes the story of how Raven created the world. Raven is a vocal creature, and a problem solver. I recently read about a study wherein a piece of food was suspended by a string from a branch. While other birds flew around it in frustration, a raven was able to figure out that by standing on the branch, hoisting the string upward with its beak, holding the string with one foot, and repeating the process, a meal was in the offing.
Ravens have more than just one vocalization. In addition to the “awk” sound, they make clucking noises and other odd sounds. The grow to tremendous size, as stated before, and can be mistaken for eagles at a distance. Ravens are scavengers, and among their favorite foods are McDonalds french fries. They also seem to be inordinately fond of the foil from cigarette packets. I’ve watched them play with a piece of styrofoam for a half hour at a time.
Ravens winter over in Alaska, so they are a common sight near larger buildings, where they spend hours playing in the warm updrafts. As they head home to the mountains every night, they can be seen exhibiting a “rolling” interaction with each other.
I think that a prime indicator of Raven’s intelligence is that I have never, repeat _never_, seen a raven dead on the road. They’re traffic smart and human wary, both traits that would better suit our moose, unfortunately.
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### Author:  [@ZomZom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZomZom)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2005, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/299019/19 "2005-04-13T17:34:53Z")
Are both Ravens and Crows meat eaters? In the area around my house in southern Maryland there are often black birds feeding on the abundant roadkill. Are these likely to be Ravens or Crows?
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### Author:  [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2005, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/299019/20 "2005-04-13T17:46:04Z")
> [@mangoldm](#):
>
> Are both Ravens and Crows meat eaters? In the area around my house in southern Maryland there are often black birds feeding on the abundant roadkill. Are these likely to be Ravens or Crows?
Both will eat almost anything, and commonly scavenge carcasses. Ravens don’t normally occur in southern Maryland, though; they are only found in the mountains in most of the eastern U.S. There are, however, two kinds of crows in Maryland, the larger American Crow and the slightly smaller Fish Crow, which is best distinguished by its call.
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/299019.md?page=2)