# Raven or crow? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 15, 2001, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/50170 "2001-01-15T17:07:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ruffian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/71e660/32.png) [@Ruffian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruffian)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/50170/1 "2001-01-15T17:07:38Z")
So there are these giant black birds outside my window that I’ve always assumed are crows. Someone else tells me they’re ravens. (I always thought that a raven and a crow are the same thing…apparently not.) I check a book of North American wildlife; it shows a crow with a yellow beak and yellow legs, whereas the raven is entirely black (like the noisy visitors I have outside currently). Ah, but then it isn’t so simple. I go to a museum, and both birds are represented–but both birds are all black, and one (crow, I believe) is just enormous in comparison to the other. Simple question: Which is which? You’d think research would be a bit more clear than what I’ve stumbled across. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/50170/2 "2001-01-15T17:24:41Z")
Crows can’t play football. From the FAQ of the “American Society of Crows and Ravens” ([http://www.azstarnet.com/~serres/](http://www.azstarnet.com/~serres/)): > [@](#): > > Ravens are about 1/3 larger than crows. They have somewhat heavier bills, more fan-shaped tails, sometimes they have a ruff (mane) of feathers around the throat. But essentially, crows and ravens are identical in color, shape - and most importantly - behavior. You might also see if they will roost on busts of Pallas. ---
**Author:** ![Sleepy\_Weasel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Sleepy\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleepy_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/50170/3 "2001-01-15T17:33:31Z")
Maybe you could shoot them and take the remains to an ornithologist… Even if they can’t tell you what kind of birds you’ve got, at least it will be quiet for a while. ---
**Author:** ![PeeWee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c0e974/32.png) [@PeeWee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PeeWee)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/50170/4 "2001-01-15T17:37:22Z")
“Crows belong to the family Corvidae of the family Passeriformes. The American Crow is classified as Corvus brachyrhychos…Crows belong to the family Corvidae of the family Passeriformes. The common Raven is classified as Corvus corax…Raven, common name applied to about 10 large birds of the Crow family. It has a wedge shaped tail and is satiny black, with a metallic, bluish sheen. The bill is long, powerful, and slightly hooked.” - Encarta '95 There’s lots of different variations, depending on where you live. Ravens appear to be almost ubiquitously black (brown necked raven and a small Mexican species being the exceptions). ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/50170/5 "2001-01-15T17:38:47Z")
Actually, I see you’re in southern CA. I’m in northern CA, and I’ve been wondering about something. It seems like we have an influx of black corvids, be they ravens or just big crows. I heard one cawing as I wrote this - it doesn’t seem to me that I used to see these things in urban/suburban areas so much, though they’ve always been common if you got out of areas of dense population. Has something changed so that they are moving into city environments? ---
**Author:** ![TwoBuyFour](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/76d3ee/32.png) [@TwoBuyFour](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwoBuyFour)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/50170/6 "2001-01-15T17:56:25Z")
Didn’t A. Hitchcock’s “The Birds” take place in a small town north of San Francisco? From what I’ve read, that story was (very loosely) based on an actual event. You may be in for a reoccurence. I hope you’re not hanging around with Suzanne Pleshette. ---
**Author:** ![Ruffian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/71e660/32.png) [@Ruffian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruffian)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/50170/7 "2001-01-15T18:51:10Z")
yabob, I hardly ever saw a crow/raven until I moved from Indiana to Southern California when I was 14. Then, they were just everywhere–moreso here east of Pasadena than at my parents’, who are near the coast. They were everywhere at my college campus. What was really annoying was we had a large pecan tree outside our mod (modular living unit…think mobile home, kindof), and every spring, when the nuts were appearing, the roommates and I would be noisily awakened by those ravens/crows on our roof chowing on the pecans. Of course, the nuts had to be opened–so the big black birds would be on our roof, pounding on the shells with those big black beaks, sounding exactly like someone either hammering things down on the roof or knocking on the door. When you’re in college and trying to oversleep one morning, it sure as hell was annoying. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/50170/8 "2001-01-15T19:41:53Z")
According to Roger Tory Peterson’s “A Field Guide to the Birds East of the Rockies,” the easiest way to tell a crow from a raven is with your ears. They look pretty much the same, though the raven may be bigger. If it says “caw” or “car,” it’s a crow. If it says, “Kruuk,” “prruk,” or a metallic “tok,” it’s a raven. Some ravens reportedly say, “Nevermore,” or “Bring on the Giants,” but never “caw.” ---
**Author:** ![Ruffian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/71e660/32.png) [@Ruffian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruffian)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/50170/9 "2001-01-15T20:05:03Z")
Well, then, going by the “caw” vs. “krruuuk” thingy, these are definitely crows. A large (and loud) murder of them just went soaring past. Yes, murder. Look it up. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/50170/10 "2001-01-15T20:21:21Z")
The call, of course, is distinctive. You can’t mix the two. However, the difference in size is also dramatic. I never saw a raven until I visited Washington, DC, and they’re all over there. Where you live may also be determinative. The common raven is only found west of the Rockies, in the Rockies, and in the Appalachians in the US. That’s why they are in Washington, DC, along the Appalachians. Indiana doesn’t have any ravens. There’s another raven found only in the SW of USA (in USA) called the Chihauhaun raven, which is in between the size of the crow and the raven, but a much heavier bill. Personally, I often confuse the boat-tailed grackle and the crow. They’re both the same size and look very similar. The boat-tailed grackle is a salt-water fish eater and is only found along the Atlantic and Gulf coasts. There is another similar bird, the great-tailed grackle which is found in the SW. Also along the same two coasts, there are two types of crows: the common (or American) crow and the fish crow, and they look EXACTLY alike. The difference is the call, and it’s not very much different, the fish crow giving usually, but not always, two consecutive crows: caw-caw (actually sounds more like “uh-uh.” The only way you can tell the difference between those two birds is to go up to one of them and ask it, “Are you an American crow?” If it says, “uh-uh,” then it’s a fish crow. ---
**Author:** ![Clucky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@Clucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clucky)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/50170/11 "2001-01-15T20:23:30Z")
A couple of crows built a crow’s nest outside our work place here (suburb of St. Louis) last spring. We enjoyed watching them feed their young. We hope they come back, but I can see why people are freaked by them. These birds will fly and hop near humans to get their grub; they appear both magnificent and menacing. And they’re BIG. ---
**Author:** ![ellis555](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e36b37/32.png) [@ellis555](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ellis555)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/50170/12 "2001-01-15T20:27:05Z")
And, Ruffian, it’s a parliament of ravens, in case you were wondering. -ellis ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/50170/13 "2001-01-15T20:34:27Z")
What’s the difference between crows and ravens? [http://members.tripod.com/~RavenSilverwing/ravecrows.html](http://members.tripod.com/~RavenSilverwing/ravecrows.html) > [@](#): > > . Ravens when full grown are about the size of hawks…[with a] short, rounded beak. Ravens like to walk rather than hop like most birds… > A crow is about the size of a pigeon. It’s beak comes to a point. Another major difference is the shape of their feathers. A ravens feather tips come to a V while the crows come to a half moon. This website is excellent. [http://cuvc.bio.cornell.edu/mcgowan/crowfaq.htm#raven](http://cuvc.bio.cornell.edu/mcgowan/crowfaq.htm#raven) > [@](#): > > Crows and ravens, although in the same genus (Corvus) are different birds… > Common Ravens can be told from American Crows by a couple of things. The size difference, which is huge, is only useful with something else around to compare them with… > More subtle characters include: ravens soar more than crows… > If seen perched in a good look, the huge bill and shaggy throat of a raven are diagnostic… > American Crows make the familiar “caw-caw,” but also have a large repertoire of rattles, clicks, and even clear bell-like notes. However, they never give anything resembling the most common calls of Common Ravens… [http://www.naturesmart.com/articles/1999\_1st\_qtr.htm](http://www.naturesmart.com/articles/1999_1st_qtr.htm) > [@](#): > > The Common Raven is up to 5 inches larger than the American Crow. The bill of the raven is much larger and thicker. And the raven also has a shaggy “beard” of feathers on its chin. Something the crow is lacking. > Another way to tell the difference between the two cousins is in their flight pattern. Ravens will soar on out-stretched wings much like a hawk or eagle, while the American Crow constantly flaps its wings with only an occasional gliding. And lastly, the call of the raven is much lower and raspier than the familiar call of the American Crow. For **Yabob:** Yes, ravens are moving into urban environments, at least in California. [http://biology.usgs.gov/s+t/SNT/noframe/ca168.htm](http://biology.usgs.gov/s+t/SNT/noframe/ca168.htm) > [@](#): > > Predators associated with urban landscapes, such as domestic and feral dogs and cats, red foxes, American kestrels, American crows, common ravens, coyotes, raccoons, striped skunks, and Virginia opossums, eat least tern adults, chicks, and eggs. [http://www.prbo.org/Shorebird/Shorebird1.html](http://www.prbo.org/Shorebird/Shorebird1.html) > [@](#): > > Common Ravens – important predators of the eggs of nesting shorebirds – are expanding their breeding range into the bay, where they nest on power line towers and other artificial structures. ---
**Author:** ![Sleepy\_Weasel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Sleepy\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleepy_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/50170/14 "2001-01-15T20:38:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by barbitu8 \* > \*\*There’s another raven found only in the SW of USA (in USA) called the Chihauhaun raven, which is in between the size of the crow and the raven, but a much heavier bill. \*\* You forgot to mention the Chihuahuan raven’s distinctive call “Yo quiero Taco Bell. Yo quiero Taco Bell.” > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Clucky \* > \*\*These birds will fly and hop near humans to get their grub; they appear both magnificent and menacing. And they’re BIG. \*\* Big, yet tasty with the right blend of “herbs and spices” as the Colonel used to say… ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/50170/15 "2001-01-15T20:43:14Z")
There are 4 species of crow (Common, Fish, Northwestern, and Tamaulipas [formerly Mexican]), and 2 species of raven (Common and Chihuahuan [formerly White-necked]) in the contiguous U.S. The only ones likely where you are, **Ruffian** , are the Common Crow _Corvus brachyrhynchos_ and the Common Raven _Corvus corax_. These two may be distinguished by the Raven being bigger and more heavily built, with shaggy feathers on the throat and a wedge-shaped (rather than straight-cut) tail. The Raven generally makes a croaking call, while the Common Crow goes “caw!” Except in the mountains, I would expect there would be mostly just crows near where you are. **Barbitu8** , your answer seems to imply that you saw ravens in the Appalachians near Washington D.C., but not in D.C. itself. I am an ornithologist and I lived in D.C. for 5 years and never saw a raven in the city. If they are around town now, the climate has certainly changed! **Ruffian** , if your book on North American wildlife shows a crow with a yellow bill, better toss it out! Crows definitely seem to be doing much better in cities thant they were several decades ago. They are very common in parts of New York City now where I never saw them while I was growing up. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/50170/16 "2001-01-15T20:47:07Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose \* \*\*What’s the difference between crows and ravens? [http://members.tripod.com/~RavenSilverwing/ravecrows.html](http://members.tripod.com/~RavenSilverwing/ravecrows.html) > [@](#): > > . Ravens when full grown are about the size of hawks…[with a] short, rounded beak. Ravens like to walk rather than hop like most birds… > A crow is about the size of a pigeon. It’s beak comes to a point. Another major difference is the shape of their feathers. A ravens feather tips come to a V while the crows come to a half moon. [http://cuvc.bio.cornell.edu/mcgowan/crowfaq.htm#raven](http://cuvc.bio.cornell.edu/mcgowan/crowfaq.htm#raven) > [@](#): > > American Crows make the familiar “caw-caw,” but also have a large repertoire of rattles, clicks, and even clear bell-like notes. However, they never give anything resembling the most common calls of Common Ravens… I have problems with those citations quoted above. For one thing, hawks vary in size tremendously, depending upon the type of hawk, from around 15" to 27". Also a crow is bigger than a pigeon by at least 3 inches. American crows occasionally make the “caw-caw,” but usually go “caw.” “Caw-caw” is the usual sound of the fish crow, altho they too may only go “caw.” I don’t know the caws of it. ---
**Author:** ![Montfort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Montfort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Montfort)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/50170/17 "2001-01-15T21:07:46Z")
Well, in Maryland, we’ve got Ravens and Crows. The Baltimore Ravens are going to the Super Bowl. My fantasy football Rockville Crows, however, didn’t even make the playoffs. So, go with the Ravens. ---
**Author:** ![johnson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@johnson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnson)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/50170/18 "2001-01-15T23:19:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Some ravens reportedly say, “Nevermore,” or “Bring on the Giants,” but never “caw.” Unless, if I’m not mistaken, they’re in PSINet Stadium over the PA system… [sub]Go 'Skins…yeah, I know[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![brachyrhynchos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brachyrhynchos/32/376_2.png) [@brachyrhynchos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brachyrhynchos)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2001, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/50170/19 "2001-01-16T02:02:16Z")
Ruffian, the easiest way to tell the difference between American Crows (_Corvus_ ahem _brachyrhynchos_) and Common Ravens (_Corvus corax_) is in flight. The crows’ tail will be cut straight across whereas the raven’s tail will have longer central tail feathers, creating the “wedge” effect previously mentioned. Size differences can be difficult to tell if there is nothing else around to estimate against and the rough throat feathers of the raven are not always obvious. The voice is also a good clue, with the raven’s call more of a rough “kaarrakk” rather than a simple “caw.” Ravens may also show “horns” - feathers on the top of their head which they will hold erect in dominance displays. Their bills are massive compared to a crows more slender bill. (Colibri’s description was right on target.) When I lived in Southern California, I saw numerous ravens around the orange orchards near Irvine. Also, the closer you are to the mountains, the more likely you’ll see them. They will also be in desert areas (much more likely than crows). You might see them soaring with red-tails or Turkey Vultures (crows will flap a lot more). And since we’re on my favorite (and professional) topic, let me add a few fun corvid facts: -American Crows are cooperative breeders. They form family groups with offspring that will stay on for several years and help raise subsequent siblings. They are fierce defenders of their young (one family near the lab kept a cat away from a downed fledgling for several hours before I was able to rescue the kid). -American Crows establish territories that they maintain year-round (except for the most northern populations, which migrate). While maintaining these territories, they also use communal roost sites during the winter. Roost size can reach many hundred thousands of birds. -The caw you commonly hear is one of about 25 calls that the crow uses. Their song is actually a beautiful, melodic warbling that they softly give, betraying their Passeriformes (songbird) classification. It is truly a lyrical sound. -Crows are damn smart. When cannon-netting crows, a colleague said he caught a family group. As he was ruunning up to the net, he saw one crow tuck its bill _down_ between its legs as it ran toward the edge of the net. By doing so, the bill did not get caught in the net and the crow escaped. (Whether this was done with conscious thought or not, I haven’t the foggiest. I do know they are one of the more difficult birds to trap, being extraordinarily wary of their surroundings.) -West Nile virus, an emerging disease in the Western Hemisphere, has a mortality rate of greater than 90% on crows in the northeast. Blue Jays, Common Ravens, and Black-billed Magpies have also shown sensitivity so this may be a group response. Breaks my heart. (BTW, Ruffian, my brother’s horse _Marseilles Ballet_ is starting her training at Santa Anita. Whoo-hoo! I wish I could be there to see her first race. Dad=Societ Problem, Mom=Mad Abandon. And _Kona Gold_ rocked in the Breeder’s Cup!!) ---
**Author:** ![Ruffian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/71e660/32.png) [@Ruffian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruffian)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2001, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/50170/20 "2001-01-16T05:41:18Z")
…a corvidologist? What the heck is that–you study the crow family? How does this work? Experiments? Tagging? Huh? Details, man, gimme details! 😉 **[aside to brachy]**(BTW, I’m putting Marseilles Ballet on my stablemail–that’s an online thing the Daily Racing form does. It’ll let me know anytime he/she has a workout, AND when they’re entered to run in any race, any track in America! …Kona will run again on the 28th; we’ll definitely be there. I was so thrilled when he won, I screamed myself hoarse!)**[/aside to brachy]** > [@](#): > > \*\*And, Ruffian, it’s a parliament of ravens, in case you were wondering. > > -ellis \*\* I thought it was a parliament of owls? **Duck Duck Goose,** the whole hawk-thing bugged me too. What kind of hawk? A red tail? A sharp-shinned hawk? Kestrel? And, if these are indeed crows (as the descriptions here are leading me to believe), they are at least twice the size of a pigeon. They are _big_ birds. Oh, and **brachy** , I’m about a 20min drive from the San Gabriel mountains. My college was right at the base, the foothills–in fact, some people would go up on the mountains and fill truck beds with snow on winter weekends. So, maybe I’ll see some ravens, too. I’ve seen hawks and turkey vultures getting harassed by what I presumed were crows in the past; actually, I’ve seen more mockingbirds on a hawk’s tail than anything. Now I’ll just try and figure out all the colorful (and cute) wrens and sparrows chowing down on the feeders outside. I love this new home. We have 4 pair of mallards that hang out around the streams and ponds, several different sparrow species at bird feeders, hummingbirds restocking on the hyperjuice everywhere, and, of course…the crows. 🙂 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raven-or-crow/50170.md?page=2)