# Ray Davies and Moby get into it over Lola **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** music\ **Created:** [March 24, 2026, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-davies-and-moby-get-into-it-over-lola/1028734 "2026-03-24T16:50:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2026, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-davies-and-moby-get-into-it-over-lola/1028734/41 "2026-03-24T18:50:09Z")
It should probably be noted that The Kinks also have a song about a crossdressing husband named Dick: [Out of the Wardrobe](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwVw6x7lzGY). While the lyrics definitely contain some dated terms (including the f-word), it is pro-crossdresser and pro-“live and let live.” An excerpt: _Betty Lou didn’t know what to do at first_ _But she’s learning how to cope at last_ _She’s got the best of both worlds_ _And she’s really in a state of elation_ _She says it helps their relationship_ _She says a change is as good as a rest_ _And their friends are finally coming 'round to their way of thinking_ _She wears the trousers and smokes the pipe_ _And he washes up_ _She helps him wipe_ _Cause when he puts on that dress_ _He looks like a princess_ ---
**Author:** ![Palooka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/palooka/32/2902_2.png) [@Palooka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palooka)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2026, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-davies-and-moby-get-into-it-over-lola/1028734/42 "2026-03-24T18:51:29Z")
Dude, it’s the last line of the song and puts a spin on the rest of it. That’s exactly what a punchline is. ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2026, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-davies-and-moby-get-into-it-over-lola/1028734/43 "2026-03-24T18:55:07Z")
It’s kind of both, though it might be termed more of a twist than a punchline. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2026, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-davies-and-moby-get-into-it-over-lola/1028734/44 "2026-03-24T19:06:15Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > Does anyone know Fatboy Slim’s thoughts on _Yoda_? He may have issue with the suggestion that killing Darth Vader would cause Luke to no longer have a job. That does, indeed, seem like a controversial take. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2026, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-davies-and-moby-get-into-it-over-lola/1028734/45 "2026-03-24T19:09:11Z")
According to the Wikipedia article on the song, Ray Davies once went on a date with Candy Darling (of “Walk on the Wild Side” fame) while knowing all along that she was trans, so he was definitely OK with the idea. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2026, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-davies-and-moby-get-into-it-over-lola/1028734/46 "2026-03-24T19:15:00Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Are you trying to suggest that there’s an interpretation of the song where Lola _isn’t trans_? Because framing that as “Lola may, in fact, be a woman” is a fucking terrible way to express that. > [@Ludovic](#): > > They could use a lot of feminine-coding but still consider themself a man. Although I agree that the previous comment might have been better said as “Lola may, in fact, _not_ be a woman,” since other than that ambiguous line there isn’t anything in the lyrics to indicate that they aren’t. Yes! Geeze, a lot of anger there. My post wasn’t something that deserved a “fucking” emphasis. I mean, that yes, Lola may be a cis-gendered woman with a husky voice. There’s nothing in the song that dismisses that possibility. It’s a mixed up world, except for Lola. Especially if the singer, a naive sort, is afraid of getting picked up by a cross dressing men. Which reminds me - this was 1966. The intent of the song was much more likely that Lola was a cross-dressing gay man, not a transgendered person. It wasn’t like there was a lot of transgendered awareness back then, except to make crude Renée Richards or Christine Jorgensen jokes. It’s highly unlikely the singer was dancing with a person that had gender reassignment, as opposed to just someone cross dressing. But yeah, go back on your high horse and white knight something that isn’t being attacked. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2026, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-davies-and-moby-get-into-it-over-lola/1028734/47 "2026-03-24T19:17:49Z")
Maybe I have a dirty mind but I’ve always thought the ‘I got down on my knees’ line meant he sealed the deal with Lola. What do people think he was doing? Praying? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2026, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-davies-and-moby-get-into-it-over-lola/1028734/48 "2026-03-24T19:26:57Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Yes! Geeze, a lot of anger there. My post wasn’t something that deserved a “fucking” emphasis. Oh, it deserved a lot more than that, but there’s limits on what can be said in this forum. ---
**Author:** ![2\_More\_Bits](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/2_more_bits/32/4148_2.png) [@2\_More\_Bits](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2_More_Bits)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2026, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-davies-and-moby-get-into-it-over-lola/1028734/49 "2026-03-24T19:27:23Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Which reminds me - this was 1966. "Lola is a song by the English rock band the Kinks, written by frontman Ray Davies for their **1970** album Lola Versus Powerman and the Moneygoround, Part One ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2026, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-davies-and-moby-get-into-it-over-lola/1028734/50 "2026-03-24T19:31:20Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Which reminds me - this was 1966. 1. A time when the male sub culture Ray Davies was a part of was leaning hard into gender-ambiguous fashion. Glam was just months away. The song’s vibe is one of wonder, not disgust. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2026, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-davies-and-moby-get-into-it-over-lola/1028734/51 "2026-03-24T19:40:21Z")
> [@Palooka](#): > > , it’s the last line of the song and puts a spin on the rest of it. That’s exactly what a punchline is The last line is “I’m glad I’m a man and so is Lola” followed by Lola repeated over and over. That is not in any way a punchline about Lola’s gender identity. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2026, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-davies-and-moby-get-into-it-over-lola/1028734/52 "2026-03-24T19:44:44Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Oh, it deserved a lot more than that, but there’s limits on what can be said in this forum. Oh? Because I think Lola may actually be a woman, and doesn’t have to be transgendered to make the song work? That the song is deliberately ambiguous? Allrighty, then! Do you even know why you’re so angry? Can you say it without swearing? > [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > gender-ambiguous fashion. Yes. that’s what I’m saying! Glam rock was not transgendered. It’s just “boys being girls”, to more or less quote the song. And combine that with androgynous women such as Twiggy and it is a crazy mixed up world. Except for Lola. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2026, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-davies-and-moby-get-into-it-over-lola/1028734/53 "2026-03-24T19:47:06Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Oh? Because I think Lola may actually be a woman, and doesn’t have to be transgendered to make the song work? That the song is deliberately ambiguous? > Ray Davies has claimed that he was inspired to write “Lola” after Kinks manager Robert Wace spent a night in Paris dancing with a [cross-dresser](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-dressing).[[10]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lola_(song)#cite_note-FOOTNOTEJovanovic2014171-10) Davies said of the incident, “In his apartment, Robert had been dancing with this black woman, and he said, ‘I’m really onto a thing here.’ And it was okay until we left at six in the morning and then I said, ‘Have you seen the stubble?’ He said ‘Yeah’, but he was too pissed [intoxicated] to care, I think”.[[11]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lola_(song)#cite_note-FOOTNOTESavage1984-11) > > Drummer [Mick Avory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mick_Avory) has offered an alternative explanation for the song’s lyrics, claiming that “Lola” was partially inspired by Avory’s frequenting of certain bars in West London.[[12]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lola_(song)#cite_note-FOOTNOTEJovanovic2014171%E2%80%93172-12) Avory said: > We used to know this character called Michael McGrath. He used to hound the group a bit, because being called The Kinks did attract these sorts of people. He used to come down to _[Top of the Pops](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_of_the_Pops)_, and he was publicist for [John Stephen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stephen)’s shop in Carnaby Street. He used to have this place in Earl’s Court, and he used to invite me to all these [drag queen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_queen) acts and [transsexual](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexual) pubs. They were like secret clubs. And that’s where Ray [Davies] got the idea for ‘Lola’. When he was invited too, he wrote it while I was getting drunk.[[9]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lola_(song)#cite_note-FOOTNOTEHasted2011-9) > **[Lola (song)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lola_(song))** > > "Lola" is a song by the English rock band the Kinks, written by frontman Ray Davies for their 1970 album Lola Versus Powerman and the Moneygoround, Part One. The song details a romantic encounter in a Soho bar between a young man and Lola, who is possibly a trans woman or cross-dresser. In the song, the narrator describes his confusion towards Lola, who "walked like a woman but talked like a man", yet he remains infatuated with her. > The song was released as a single in the United Kingdom o... ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2026, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-davies-and-moby-get-into-it-over-lola/1028734/54 "2026-03-24T19:55:52Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Do you even know why you’re so angry? I do! It’s because you keep saying things like, “Lola may be an actual woman, and doesn’t have to be transgendered to make the song work.” Trying to create a distinction between trans women and “actual” women, as you’ve done twice now, is deeply offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2026, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-davies-and-moby-get-into-it-over-lola/1028734/55 "2026-03-24T20:00:22Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > So, is Lola “Glad he’s (the singer) a man”, or is Lola a man? The latter could be seen as denying Lola’s gender identity. Except in 1970, there was no language to describe gender identity. “Lola is a ‘man’,” would have been about the only way to describe her then. Other than that, the song is very respectful towards Lola. She is referred to a “she” throughout the entire song. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2026, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-davies-and-moby-get-into-it-over-lola/1028734/56 "2026-03-24T20:05:14Z")
> [@Maus\_Magill](#): > > Except in 1970, there was no language to describe gender identity. “Lola is a ‘man’,” would have been about the only way to describe her then. Well, yes, but the whole point of Moby’s rant is that he is re-interpreting the song with modern sensibilities, a practice which is depressingly common today. That’s why people think he’s an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2026, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-davies-and-moby-get-into-it-over-lola/1028734/57 "2026-03-24T20:24:37Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > Well, yes, but the whole point of Moby’s rant is that he is re-interpreting the song with modern sensibilities, a practice which is depressingly common today. That’s why people think he’s an idiot. I think its possible to recognize that a song (or book/movie/whatever) might have been very progressive for its day, while still being uncomfortable with how the song hits in a modern context. Art has an emotional component that’s often not susceptible to being intellectualized away. You can recognize that something was remarkably accepting when it was written, while not being able to get past the emotional connotations of what it implies in a contemporary context. Like, one can recognize that _Huckleberry Finn_ is taking a very strong anti-racist position for the time in which it was written, while still being turned off by seeing the n-word multiple times per page. Someone can have this position without necessarily throwing Mark Twain out of the canon, or insisting that the text be bowdlerized. I don’t want to sign up for Rolling Stone, so I haven’t read the article, but it doesn’t sound like Moby is insisting that “Lola” be banned, or that Ray Davies is a bigot for writing it. He just can’t get over his modern associations with the song, which ruins his enjoyment of it. ---
**Author:** ![We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/We_re_wolves_not_werewolves)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2026, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-davies-and-moby-get-into-it-over-lola/1028734/58 "2026-03-24T20:37:53Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Trying to create a distinction between trans women and “actual” women, as you’ve done twice now, is deeply offensive. I don’t sense any malice in what he was saying. I think he was just awkwardly trying to make a distinction between the possibility of Lola being biologically female vs trans woman. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2026, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-davies-and-moby-get-into-it-over-lola/1028734/59 "2026-03-24T20:40:04Z")
> [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](#): > > I don’t sense any malice in what he was saying. Thanks. I did add cis-gendered in the second post, but some people have to be angry all the time. Especially as Lola is more likely a cross dressing man, rather than a transgendered person. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2026, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-davies-and-moby-get-into-it-over-lola/1028734/60 "2026-03-24T20:44:13Z")
> [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](#): > > I don’t sense any malice in what he was saying. I think he was just awkwardly trying to make a distinction between the possibility of Lola being biologically female vs trans woman. It doesn’t have to be malicious to be offensive. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-davies-and-moby-get-into-it-over-lola/1028734.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-davies-and-moby-get-into-it-over-lola/1028734.md?page=4)