# Ray Rice goes Tubthumping. **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [May 23, 2014, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126 "2014-05-23T21:03:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/261 "2014-09-10T03:33:57Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Unfortunately organizations like the NFL are very sensitive to public opinion. They allowed a vocal and outraged group to have their way. Simple question–Do you think the NFL had the right to terminate him? Just as any company in the US would have had? I suspect you just don’t realize how many companies in the US would have shitcanned his ass for what he did. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/262 "2014-09-10T03:43:25Z")
Given the publicity he would have been fired from any job. Unfortunately for Rice, he is a public figure and this got national press coverage. I suspect the typical spousal abuse case doesn’t result in the person getting fired. Especially when they get a plea deal with counseling. Any jail time would result in job termination. You can’t miss several months or years of work and expect to have a job waiting for you. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/263 "2014-09-10T03:55:37Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I for one am fed up with the mob mentality that demands the head of anyone that does or says anything that displeases them. I also hate it when the general public abhors some complete fucking dick knocking a woman unconscious and expecting him to reap the consequences of his own heinous actions. What the hell are us unfeeling less-enlightened idiots thinking? > [@Ravenman](#): > > You just abhor a domestic abuser losing his job more. We get it. And, after all, it was just the _one_ punch. Otherwise, our fearless crusader for women’s safety would be all over this poor, pushed to the limits, guy’s unfair maligning. He’s been rail roaded, I tells ya, rail roaded! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/264 "2014-09-10T04:01:33Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I really don’t see what I’ve said that is outrageous. Yes, I know. > [@](#): > > I don’t feel heated public opinion trumpeted by the press should be the basis for a public trial & condemnation. Ruining someone’s career and destroying their life is a form of punishment. Just as severe as sending them to prison. That shouldn’t be tolerated in this country. So… you’re not a big fan of the First Amendment, then. The deal is this: Rice is rich and famous because there is a lot of money in football. People pay a lot of money to watch and support it, so he enjoys a very privileged position. He is not entitled to that. He did earn it, and his supposed character was a part of that. Guys with too many “character issues” sometimes don’t make it. Now that everyone knows he beat the shit out of his wife, he has the same problem. > [@](#): > > I respect the process even when I don’t agree with the outcome of a case. Mob rule even indirectly through public pressure is not acceptable. There has been very little pressure on the justice system. There was pressure on the NFL, which is a private business. > [@](#): > > Unfortunately organizations like the NFL are very sensitive to public opinion. You mean businesses with a public image and customers? Yes, they are. As a note in passing… you said Janay Rice is in danger now that her husband has lost his income and status. If the only thing keeping her safe was the fact that he was a wealthy football player, she was already in danger. Football careers can end at any time, and Rice was arguably approaching the end of his already. He might’ve had three to five years left, barring injury. ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/265 "2014-09-10T04:25:19Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > It’s interesting if you actually believe that a person’s response to this issue need be shaped by his team loyalties. “_ **Need** _ be shaped”? Of course not. But “_ **may** _ be shaped” seems to be a legitimate possibility, to me at least. > [@mhendo](#): > > Some might, but i don’t think that our first assumption in a discussion of something as serious as assault is that a person is willing to forego his morals and ignore the law just to see his team win. People are motivated by all sorts of things. How something impacts them personally can be one of those things. > [@mhendo](#): > > Anyway, for all that it matters, i believe that **Omniscient** is a Bears supporter. That makes his POV harder for me to understand, but that is my problem, not his. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/266 "2014-09-10T05:42:16Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Unfortunately organizations like the NFL are very sensitive to public opinion. And? The entertainment industry exists for the sole purpose of making money off of public opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/267 "2014-09-10T06:40:32Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > …If it keeps a woman from dying I think it helps somebody. I think you’re wrong–that is, I don’t think it necessarily keeps a woman from dying. The mindset of a lot of domestic abusers is, “SHE made me do it” “SHE knows how to push my buttons” “SHE drove me crazy.” “It’s all HER fault.” (Excuse my using the male as the example of the abuser; I know men are also abused, but mostly they are the ones with the muscle.) Their thinking is wrong. Maybe they can change it; I think some of them can. I know there are things like AMEND but I don’t know what their success rate is. But the point is that with this kind of mindset the whole thing is HER fault. It’s HER fault that he got kicked out of the NFL. It’s HER fault that he lost his career. Kicking him out of the NFL is not going to change his thinking. Maybe the diversion program will. But unless his thinking is changed, even if she leaves him, it’s always going to be HER fault that he did it, and HER fault that he got kicked out of the NFL. I don’t actually think people should automatically lose their jobs for something like this, and I sure don’t think it makes the woman any safer if they do. Someday years in the future, when he’s run through all the money, he’s still going to think it’s her fault–unless he changes. It is kind of a black eye for the NFL but I bet they have lots of players who are abusing their wives/domestic partner because entitlement is such a big part of it. On the one hand you can hope that making a public example of someone like this might help, in the long run. On the other hand he now might think he has nothing left to lose. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/268 "2014-09-10T08:30:28Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > And let’s talk about the video. > > I have watched this a number of times. Here is what I see. If other’s see differently, feel free to chime in. > > At the beginning of the video, it appears as if Ray Rice spits in her face. She slaps him in the face, not exactly hard, but she does connect. Ray Rice is not injured by this, and follows her to the elevator. I don’t see any spit, or any reason to believe there was spit. She hasn’t said he spat at her, and it doesn’t appear on the video. > [@](#): > > In the elevator, words are exchanged and he spits on her again. She then smacks him a second time, and that is when he gives her a left hook Tyson would have been proud of. Again, the spit is entirely in your imagination. His reaction to being hit (again) is actually to retreat to the far side of the room, she then lunges after him and that’s when he hits her. Doesn’t look like he hit her all that hard, he didn’t put his weight into it, but her lunging forward would cause more damage to be done. > [@](#): > > Seriously, is the idea that she didn’t let Rice spit on her without saying something or smacking Rice in his face (which he deserved if he DID spit in her) what she is referring to when she regrets “the part she played in the attack.”? I think the part she regrets is hitting him repeatedly, then lunging for him as soon as they were out of public view. Your desire to believe he provoked the attack just shows your own prejudice against male victims of violence. > [@](#): > > The other thing that I noticed immediately was the lack of a reaction from Rice after the blow. If he had never hit his fiancee before, I would think a normal person would react in horror. If someone threw a punch but never thought the result would be a knockout blow, I would think panic would wash over that person, he would be immediately go down to the ground and check to see if she was ok. He would have some urgency to his actions. Instead, he nonchalantly moves around the elevator until it opens up, then pulls her out like a sack of fertilizer. Inaction is one of the signs of panic. Even if your totally unwarranted assumption that he’s a habitual abuser were correct, he obviously doesn’t knock her unconscious on a regular basis, so panic would still be justified. In any case, he does check on her, then pulls her out to where she can be helped. His actions aren’t unreasonable. > [@](#): > > This is disgusting. I am disgusted on so many levels at so many people. Of course Ray Rice is on that list. It looks like he spits on the mother of his children twice, and then clocks her when she objects to being a human spittoon. No, it looks like he’s repeatedly hit and only defends himself when she lunges for him. > [@](#): > > Ray Rice will never play in the NFL again. Because as soon as someone would sign him, this video will be played over and over again. He is a PR nightmare. I will be shocked if he is ever picked up, but hell, this video shocked me so I guess anything is possible. It is despicable how people will publicly harass a victim of domestic violence like this. > [@](#): > > But it is more than Ray Rice. I am disgusted by Roger Goodell. He should resign immediately. He won’t, but the owners need to fire him. There is no way I can believe the NFL didn’t see this tape. I know the NFL and the Ravens both are both claiming ignorance here, but I believe they both saw this tape, especially when the casino has stated they gave the police the tape right after the incident. > > I have so many questions. And I am angry that the arrogance of the NFL, the Ravens, and Ray Rice all seemed to think that what he did was “a mistake”, “forgivable”, and “a lesson to learn from.” The man should be in jail. How is this not a clear example of assult? Ever hear of Stand Your Ground? Well, he didn’t do that. After being repeatedly assaulted, he was in a closed lift with her and retreated as far as that allowed, but she still lunged after him. That’s not even provocation, it’s self defence. His only mistake was falling for an abusive woman. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/269 "2014-09-10T08:46:55Z")
Apparently, the pre-trial counseling or whatever it’s called is supposedly SOP for first time domestic violence offenders in New Jersey. If so, is that something that should change? Should there be more options for harsher penalties based on the egregiousness of the offense? ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/270 "2014-09-10T08:57:18Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You’re wrong again! I don’t understand why you won’t read the elementary facts of this case before you spout off and defend this guy. But even if you were right, you’d be wrong: this is a truly vile and disgusting thing to say. Your “facts” would be more credible if you hadn’t explicitly refused to ever look at the video. The woman herself has spoken: > [@](#): > > “I woke up this morning feeling like I had a horrible nightmare, feeling like I’m mourning the death of my closest friend. But to have to accept the fact that it’s reality is a nightmare in itself. No one knows the pain that the media & unwanted options from the public has caused my family. To make us relive a moment in our lives that we regret every day is a horrible thing. To take something away from the man I love that he has worked his ass of for all his life just to gain ratings is horrific. THIS IS OUR LIFE! What don’t you all get. If your intentions were to hurt us, embarrass us, make us feel alone, take all happiness away, you’ve succeeded on so many levels. Just know we will continue to grow & show the world what real love is! Ravensnation we love you!”\> Doesn’t sound like she’s very pleased with the lynch mob, does it? I’m sure she’s just a weak-minded fool being controlled by that manipulative abused of hers. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/271 "2014-09-10T10:07:52Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Doesn’t look like he hit her all that hard, he didn’t put his weight into it, but her lunging forward would cause more damage to be done. " Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, it was at this point that the lady in question ran her chin, at great speed, into the fist of my client…" ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/272 "2014-09-10T10:10:23Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Ever hear of Stand Your Ground? Well, he didn’t do that. After being repeatedly assaulted, he was in a closed lift with her and retreated as far as that allowed, but she still lunged after him. That’s not even provocation, it’s self defence. So if he’d had a gun he would have been justified in using that to defend himself?" > [@](#): > > His only mistake was falling for an abusive woman. Yep, we’ve all been there. Sometimes a punch is the only language they’ll understand…:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/273 "2014-09-10T11:10:56Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Ever hear of Stand Your Ground? Well, he didn’t do that. After being repeatedly assaulted, he was in a closed lift with her and retreated as far as that allowed, but she still lunged after him. That’s not even provocation, it’s self defence. Holding her arms, wrapping her up, pushing her, etc., would be self-defense, when there’s such a massive strength differential between the two parties. Punching her with knockout-force is not self-defense. A star NFL player vs an unarmed, smallish woman is like you or me vs an unarmed 10 year old girl. Would you punch a 10 year old girl hard enough to knock her out if she was trying to slap you? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/274 "2014-09-10T11:43:05Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > A driving range in the Maryland suburbs of DC has announced a [promotion](http://www.olneygolfpark.com/): trash to cash. Trade in a Ray Rice jersey and you get a bucket of golf balls. Awesome. Great advertising. Is there any chance his jerseys will increase in value over time? /cynical bastard talk ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/275 "2014-09-10T13:27:48Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I do not find her apology troubling because I think she had absolutely no blame in the situation, **seeing it only in black and white terms.** I find it troubling because it overplays her own blame, and underplays his. And I find it troubling because it fits the pattern of the abused woman blaming herself more than she should (whether because **she believes** she’s really at fault or because she feels she needs to appease her abuser, **or both** ). Precisely how much of their dysfunctional and violent relationship is her fault, and how much is his? I mean, clearly you know the answer to this, since you’re so confident that her statement – which comes after months of working with a counselor – is inaccurate. Heck, just go ahead and type up the statement she should have written and send it in for her to sign. Clearly, you know better than her what she ought to think and feel. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/276 "2014-09-10T14:11:21Z")
> [@JesterX](#): > > For all those who don’t get how the new video sheds more light on the altercation between Ray Rice and his then-fiancé. Remember, the implication was that his fiancé greatly contributed to the altercation. Both of them gave the impression that it was mutual. This video pretty much shows that Janay Rice really didn’t do anything. That is a huge difference and warrants a greater response from the Ravens, the NFL AND the public. So before the second video surfaced, Rice received a comparatively mild punishment because it was generally believed that his girlfriend contributed to the situation wherein he knocked her out and dragged her off an elevator. Then the second video surfaced, and after we all saw that her only contribution to the situation was to slap him, whereupon he knocked her out and dragged her off an elevator, he received a much more severe punishment. Once you prove that a battered woman is covering up for her abuser, then he can be punished more severely. Before that, it is less serious and merits much less punishment, because a battered woman covering up for her abuser is inherently credible. Is that about the size of it? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/277 "2014-09-10T14:48:53Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Your “facts” would be more credible if you hadn’t explicitly refused to ever look at the video. > > The woman herself has spoken: I’m aware of her statement, and there is no connection at all between what you’re saying and the point I was making. Her defense of her husband and abuser has no connection to the fact that **aceplace57** made many, many errors in his defense of Ray Rice and his objection to his suspension by the NFL and release by the Ravens. > [@](#): > > Doesn’t sound like she’s very pleased with the lynch mob, does it? Invoking a lynch mob to defend a guy who beat a woman! Class! > [@](#): > > I’m sure she’s just a weak-minded fool being controlled by that manipulative abused of hers. Were you interested, you might’ve seen that we’ve been talking about this for a couple of pages. Ultimately you’re not revealing anything about the Rices or domestic abusers, but you’re providing an example of people who defend them. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/278 "2014-09-10T15:08:11Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > I think you’re wrong–that is, I don’t think it necessarily keeps a woman from dying. I’m not trying to make a specific assertion about this case. But yes, sometimes that is what happens: the abuse gets worse and worse, the woman feels she’s unable to leave, and she gets killed. In some cases, outside intervention - arresting and prosecuting domestic abusers - is necessary to stop that cycle. I’m not saying it’s the only option, but you appear to go on to say this won’t work because it’s not how abusers presumably think. I’m not comfortable making an assertion that broad. > [@](#): > > But unless his thinking is changed, even if she leaves him, it’s always going to be HER fault that he did it, and HER fault that he got kicked out of the NFL. To me her safety is a far, far higher priority than his thinking. Yes, his thinking needs to change if they are going to stay together and form a healthy relationship. That is not the primary consideration here. The highest priority is making sure she doesn’t get beaten again. Then you can talk about what his attitude toward his career ought to look like. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/279 "2014-09-10T17:19:46Z")
Wrong thread. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/280 "2014-09-10T17:35:39Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I don’t feel heated public opinion trumpeted by the press should be the basis for a public trial & condemnation. Ruining someone’s career and destroying their life is a form of punishment. Just as severe as sending them to prison. **That shouldn’t be tolerated in this country**. WTF are you on about? How are you gonna stop it? By publicly shaming (without a criminal trial) and disrupting the lives of those who don’t want anything to do with Ray Rice? :dubious: Or maybe you want a law passed that says that no employer can fire anyone once they’re hired? Or a law forbidding potential employers from not hiring available workers? :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126.md?page=15)