# Ray Rice goes Tubthumping. **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [May 23, 2014, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126 "2014-05-23T21:03:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/281 "2014-09-10T17:50:57Z")
I really wonder if folks like **aceplace** are also upset that Nike and the Madden football video game also dropped Ray Rice from their endorsement deals. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/282 "2014-09-10T17:53:35Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > WTF are you on about? How are you gonna stop it? By publicly shaming (without a criminal trial) and disrupting the lives of those who don’t want anything to do with Ray Rice? :dubious: Or maybe you want a law passed that says that no employer can fire anyone once they’re hired? Or a law forbidding potential employers from not hiring available workers? :rolleyes: The “public trial and condemnation” thing is also just bullshit. There was a lot of public condemnation, sure. But what the hell is a “public trial,” as opposed to a regular trial? There are no criminal penalties. The public can’t put Ray Rice in jail. It can’t enforce a restraining order or anything else. It can’t fine him. And a regular trial (“the People of the State of New Jersey vs. Ray Rice”) wouldn’t exactly be private. The government had a chance to put Ray Rice on trial and it refused, and **aceplace57** and a lot of other people here agree that was a poor decision. And by the way that reflects one of the many benefits Ray Rice gets to enjoy as the result of his career that the public does not. I doubt that a regular Joe would get off with counseling and probation if he was caught on camera knocking his wife insensible, but Ray Rice is a wealthy and famous person with a reputation, and that goes a long way. Anyway I abhor domestic violence, but expressing your opinion in a way that affects a wife-beater is beyond the pale. Is that about the size of it, **aceplace57**? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/283 "2014-09-10T17:58:41Z")
Re the job issue, I think people in the entertainment business - which includes sports - play by a different set of rules. A big part of the job is having the public at large like you, and if you become unpopular for whatever reason, you’re no longer capable of doing the same job that you previously were. It’s not as if you were a welder or an accountant, where you can do the exact same job regardless. But in entertainment, the minute you can’t sell tickets or products or whatever, you’re not getting the job done, and out you go. Entertainers need to be aware of this, and if they’re not, then they have only themselves to blame. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/284 "2014-09-10T18:23:26Z")
Actually, I think that similar principles apply to public figures as they do to private businesses in this respect: if you’re an actor/athlete/entertainer, and you do things to make your audience dislike you, you aren’t going to be working for long. If you are a plumber/architect/lawyer and you do things to make your customers dislike you, you aren’t going to be working for long. This makes me think of those tone-deaf businesses that complain loudly about poor Yelp or Angie’s List reviews: well, guess what, bub, if the public knows that your service techs are late, grouchy, and unfriendly, they aren’t going to be hired for the job. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/285 "2014-09-10T19:02:07Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Sure on an individual basis each person has the right to an opinion. Boycott the NFL if you want. Refuse to watch a Ravens game. It’s a free country and everyone can make their own choices. … you mean choices like firing employees for beating their wives? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/286 "2014-09-10T19:26:33Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Actually, I think that similar principles apply to public figures as they do to private businesses in this respect: if you’re an actor/athlete/entertainer, and you do things to make your audience dislike you, you aren’t going to be working for long. > > If you are a plumber/architect/lawyer and you do things to make your customers dislike you, you aren’t going to be working for long. This makes me think of those tone-deaf businesses that complain loudly about poor Yelp or Angie’s List reviews: well, guess what, bub, if the public knows that your service techs are late, grouchy, and unfriendly, they aren’t going to be hired for the job. It reminds me of shock jocks who get canned when they say something horribly racist or otherwise offensive. It’s not about the law or even morality, it’s about not pissing off your customer base. The NFL is trying to appeal to female fans. (Note the garish pink flair during breast cancer month.) Going soft on a wife-beater isn’t the best way to do that. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/287 "2014-09-10T19:34:17Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Here’s the thing. Every major business does. Domestic Abuse is widespread, and includes all races/socioeconomical classes/genders/religious/etc. group you care to mention. There are doctors/hospital adminstrators/nurses who beat their spouses. There are construction workers/real estate agents/owners of buildings who beat their spouses. There are mail room workers/stock brokers/CEO’s who beat their spouses. There are police officers/mayors/policitians who beat their spouses. Domestic abuse is, sadly, everywhere. And rare indeed is the company that fires people over it. I just realized that i neglected to respond to this post. Sorry. The thread moved quickly for a couple of days. I understand the point you’re making here, and my first response is that you’re absolutely right. There are thousands of people, working in all sorts of professions, who are domestic abusers and who get to keep their jobs. This is the reality of the world. My first response, i guess, is to ask whether you think they SHOULD keep their jobs? After all, simply arguing that most companies don’t fire the spouse-beaters is sort of begging the very question we’re asking here: should they fire them? I tend to think the world might be improved if we made clear to these violent people that a possible consequence of their actions is loss of livelihood. Maybe, rather than simply asserting that Rice’s firing is an aberration, we might shift the discussion by calling it a good start? Of course, this runs us up against a problem that has been raised a couple of times already in this discussion, namely that putting an abuser in jail or out of a job often has a detrimental effect on the very people we’re trying to protect: the spouse and children. I’m honesty not sure what to do about this. My first-order solution might be to create an adequate safety net for the victims, so they are less likely to have their whole socio-economic future dictated by the earnings of their abusive spouse. But i’m also realistic enough to understand that the general trend in terms of safety net spending in America is leaning towards less rather than more. Another response i have to your overall point about domestic abusers in the workplace is similar to the one raised in this post: > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Re the job issue, I think people in the entertainment business - which includes sports - play by a different set of rules. A big part of the job is having the public at large like you, and if you become unpopular for whatever reason, you’re no longer capable of doing the same job that you previously were. The NFL sells a product: football. But doing this is, to a considerable extent, about selling a larger image and selling entertainment more generally. The league is, in a very real sense, inextricable from its public relations in a way that some businesses are not. As i noted earlier in the thread, the league, and its teams, and even the individual players themselves, buy into the idea that they all serve a broader purpose to the nation and the community than simply playing football. Why else the obsession with pink ribbon days and support the troop days and all the other charity-related PR bullshit that they go in for? Every time a player or a coach or an owner does something good, we have it pushed in our faces as an example of how civic-minded they are. Well, if they see themselves as accountable to public sentiment when they do all this good stuff, shouldn’t they also be accountable for the shitty stuff too? I don’t claim to have all the answers here. As i said in my earlier response to **RickJay** , i sort of understand the sentiment that a person should not be penalized at work for things he does off the clock. But when you’re in the pubic image game, you’re never _really_ off the clock, at least in the minds of the people who watch you and support your product. I’m also not a hard-line law-and-order nut. I’d prefer that our legal and prison system be less draconian. But i would also prefer to start on that road with offenders who commit non-violent offenses, rather than offenders who knock smaller, weaker people unconscious for little or no reason. As a faculty member at a university, i work in a profession that is often derided by conservatives for its excessive workplace protections (tenure, strong unions, etc.). I’m a member of a pretty strong faculty union, and our collective bargaining agreement places restrictions on when faculty can be terminated, with particularly strong protections for those with tenure. I’m actually not familiar enough with the specifics to know what would happen to a tenured faculty member who got caught do what Ray Rice did, but i personally believe that we should be able to fire that person. I say this not because anyone cares very much about my work, but simply to demonstrate that my own argument here goes beyond football, and would apply to people in my own area of employment as well. > [@Hamlet](#): > > I don’t mean to talk you out of boycotting the NFL because they don’t handle domestic abuse cases very well at all. That’s up to you. Actually, the reasons for my boycott are bigger than this incident alone. If anything, this one was simply the straw that broke the camel’s back. My beef with the NFL ranges from big social issues like domestic violence and the way it dealt with the whole concussion problem, through to narrower business- and consumer-related actions like blackouts and the expense of merchandise, through to things like the constant attempts to extort money for new stadiums from taxpayers while at the same time relying on arguments about the free market to justify gouging their fans for every possible cent. I understand that some of these problems apply to other leagues. Baseball has social problems, and baseball owners are also experts at advancing the cause of corporate socialism when they want a new stadium. But the NFL is the big boy on the block, the archetype of everything that’s crappy about professional sport. It has a bit of competition from FIFA and the IOC, but here in the US it’s the NFL that rules the roost. > [@Hamlet](#): > > All I’m saying is that I think holding a corporation responsible to punish every one who works for them will keep you very, very busy indeed. Absolutely. I understand that it’s very difficult to be completely consistent on this issue. I’m sure i buy products from companies with asshole employees. But this is an area where i can deny myself a pleasure without denying myself anything that i literally can’t live without. I miss football, and as i said earlier in the thread, i might not be able to sustain the boycott, but it’s something i can do, so i’m giving it a shot. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/288 "2014-09-10T19:38:32Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > It reminds me of shock jocks who get canned when they say something horribly racist or otherwise offensive. It’s not about the law or even morality, it’s about not pissing off your customer base. > > The NFL is trying to appeal to female fans. (Note the garish pink flair during breast cancer month.) Going soft on a wife-beater isn’t the best way to do that. I agree with this, but i think that one thing we need to do in order to push back against domestic abuse is avoid the implication that it’s just something that appeals to female fans. Domestic abuse isn’t, or at least shouldn’t be, just a women’s issue. It’s a social problem, and even when women constitute the majority of victims, it’s something that all football fans, whether male or female, should be concerned about. Men who are NFL fans should make it clear to the league that male fans won’t tolerate an organization that abandons the victims of abuse. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/289 "2014-09-10T19:40:24Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > The NFL is trying to appeal to female fans. (Note the garish pink flair during breast cancer month.) Going soft on a wife-beater isn’t the best way to do that. They have gone soft on lots and lots of wife-beaters in the past. This is not a one-time failure. This is just a case where they couldn’t get away with it. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/290 "2014-09-10T19:42:59Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m not trying to make a specific assertion about this case. But yes, sometimes that is what happens: the abuse gets worse and worse, the woman feels she’s unable to leave, and she gets killed. In some cases, outside intervention - arresting and prosecuting domestic abusers - is necessary to stop that cycle. I’m not saying it’s the only option, but you appear to go on to say this won’t work because it’s not how abusers presumably think. I’m not comfortable making an assertion that broad. > > To me her safety is a far, far higher priority than his thinking. Yes, his thinking needs to change if they are going to stay together and form a healthy relationship. That is not the primary consideration here. The highest priority is making sure she doesn’t get beaten again. Then you can talk about what his attitude toward his career ought to look like. Well, I don’t see how taking away his job ensures she won’t get beaten again. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/291 "2014-09-10T19:54:52Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > Well, I don’t see how taking away his job ensures she won’t get beaten again. I didn’t say it would. The Ravens and the NFL got rid of him because it’s good for them, and nobody should think there was any other motivation to it. But **sitchensis** said convicting domestic abusers of felonies doesn’t help anyone, which is a more general statement. I’m saying there are times that is the appropriate solution. Remediation is fine in some circumstances but I don’t think it’s right for every case. The thing that would most ensure she doesn’t get beaten is keeping them apart, and that’s probably not an option here since NJ didn’t prosecute him. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/292 "2014-09-10T20:00:28Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > The NFL is trying to appeal to female fans. (Note the garish pink flair during breast cancer month.) Going soft on a wife-beater isn’t the best way to do that. It does not seem to me that women take a harder line on wife beaters than men do. (The opposite, if anything. A lot of men take a much more protective attitude to women than women do.) ---
**Author:** ![Gordon\_Urquhart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/db5fbb/32.png) [@Gordon\_Urquhart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gordon_Urquhart)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/293 "2014-09-10T20:19:03Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > … (Note the garish pink flair during breast cancer month.) … This (and \*\*mhendo \*\*alluded to it as well) is another reason the NFL has incurred my wrath: [8.1 cents of every dollar raised from the sale of NFL pink flair goes to breast cancer research](http://www.si.com/si-wire/2013/10/16/pink-nfl-merchandise-breast-cancer-research). The NFL has the gall to take 1.25 cents of every dollar – making this “awareness campaign” a source of revenue for them – and considerably more than that if the flair is purchased from their website (as most of it is) since half of every dollar goes to the retailer. The NFL likes to make it look like it gives a shit about women; in actuality, it really, really doesn’t. It does give a shit about making lots and lots of money. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/294 "2014-09-10T20:26:34Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > Well, I don’t see how taking away his job ensures she won’t get beaten again. I’m not sure letting him keep his job will either. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/295 "2014-09-10T20:57:33Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I’m honesty not sure what to do about this. I would suggest that perhaps the criminal justice system, and not employers, are best suited to answer this question. If there is a jail sentence imposed, or conditions that make it impossible to keep their current job, that can be a repercussion for their bad act, but I think putting the decision as to the ramifications should be in the hands of the prosecutors and judges rather than Manager Joe and the HR Department. > [@mhendo](#): > > Well, if they see themselves as accountable to public sentiment when they do all this good stuff, shouldn’t they also be accountable for the shitty stuff too? Certainly. Ray Rice’s deplorable actions reflected very poorly on the NFL (although the NFL’s handling of the situation reflected exponentially worse), and they could take action against it. And I think they should have taken action even more substantial than they did. All of which isn’t really the point I was making, though. I was addressing your boycott of the NFL, not the NFL’s handling of the situation (which I think we both would agree was horrible). I think that, if that’s the line you want to draw, that’s great. But I don’t think people who don’t boycott the NFL over this are in the wrong either. I don’t shop at WalMart. I will never ever see Powder or The Pianist. I will never eat at Chick-fil-A. I will never set foot in Hobby Lobby, drive a SUV, or go to China. We all make these kinds of decisions. I just don’t think that how a company handles one domestic abuse case of one of its workers would be the straw that broke the camels back for me. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/296 "2014-09-10T20:58:35Z")
> [@Gordon\_Urquhart](#): > > The NFL likes to make it look like it gives a shit about women; in actuality, it really, really doesn’t. It does give a shit about making lots and lots of money. In that sense, they’re like pretty much every other company in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/297 "2014-09-10T21:09:03Z")
[Bye, Roger.](http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ap-newsbreak-source-says-rice-video-sent-nfl) ---
**Author:** ![leftfield6](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leftfield6/32/18780_2.png) [@leftfield6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leftfield6)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/298 "2014-09-10T21:35:23Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > [Bye, Roger.](http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ap-newsbreak-source-says-rice-video-sent-nfl) Holy shit. Flat out bald faced lying. By the corporation behind " the Shield". Fuck the NFL. Everything about this just makes me feel justified in my decision years ago to fire the NFL from my entertainment world. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/299 "2014-09-10T21:49:27Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > [Bye, Roger.](http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ap-newsbreak-source-says-rice-video-sent-nfl) Per the link: > [@AP](#): > > In a memo to the NFL’s 32 teams on Wednesday, Goodell said that the league asked law enforcement for the video, but not the casino. “In the context of a criminal investigation, information obtained outside of law enforcement that has not been tested by prosecutors or by the court system is not necessarily a reliable basis for imposing league discipline,” he wrote. So Roger, was that TMZ video “tested by prosecutors or the court system”? I personally don’t think this new revelation will result in Goodell’s firing. It’s a “he said, she said” and the LEO isn’t going public. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/300 "2014-09-10T21:51:42Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > I personally don’t think this new revelation will result in Goodell’s firing. It’s a “he said, she said” and the LEO isn’t going public. The LEO seems to have proof someone at the NFL got the video, and the league’s entire defense for its shitty response to the original video was that they didn’t have this one and the “context” it provides. Now we know they had access to this video. If that’s the case, it seems to me they can chuck him for trying to cover it up or chuck him for incompetence. It sure seems like he’s becoming a liability, doesn’t it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126.md?page=16)