# Ray Rice goes Tubthumping. **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [May 23, 2014, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126 "2014-05-23T21:03:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/121 "2014-09-09T14:16:23Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > This precisely. As someone who used to volunteer at a women’s shelter, the reason many stay with their abusers (no matter what socio-economic class they came from) was simple… they _loved_ and, sadly, were always conditioned to believe he’d change. Why? A whole host of issues. Sometimes because of poor self-esteem. Others out of a fear of abandonment or that they’d never find anyone else again. Still more because of fear. Then add in things like children, lack of anywhere else to go (no support from loved ones / no education or ability to support themselves), mental illness, you name it. > > The “blaming the victim” mentality of some is disgusting and, in light of all the information about this sort of thing these days, pathetic and ridiculous. Gold digger, unless proven so conclusively, my ass. I think some of what you’re calling “blame the victim” is rooted in distrust of a paradigm that (insultingly) paints Ms. Rice as _only_ a victim, and Mr. Rice as \*only \*a violent thug. At least as often as not, domestic violence is an embedded part of a relationship dynamic to which both parties contribute. I watch that video and I see two people with anger/aggressiveness issues, not just one. It’s unclear, but ISTM she initiates the violence, which he then escalates. It’s definitely clear that after he hits her first time, she gets up and moves toward him, which is when he delivers the blow that knocked her out. IANAP, but my understanding is that that is a pretty common dynamic in violent relationships. Escalation leads to escalation, and both people find themselves doing things they really don’t want to be doing, but they feel powerless to stop it. Judging by the statements she has made, it sounds like they are working on their relationship and understanding the roots of the anger, and that’s great. In the meantime, though the reductionistic woman=victim, man=brute narrative that dominates the media smells like bullshit to a lot of people. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/122 "2014-09-09T14:17:57Z")
I don’t share the outrage over the woman’s acknowledgement that she participated in the exchange. By all indications she did, although she obviously got the worse of the exchange. But she did hit him and (from what I’ve read) spit on him. That counts as having a part in it, in my book. In general, IMO a lot of people have a difficult time viewing the world as any more complex than simple black-and-white, villians and heroes, victims and criminals. And this leads to the insistance on viewing all victims of spousal/partner abuse as helpless victims of evil brutes (and also adds to the puzzlement over the fact that many choose to stay with the abusers, and the need to attribute it to supposed victim complexes and other dubious motivations). Things are not so simple, IRL. ETA: pretty much what furt just snuck in. Re the hotel security, it’s possible they thought she was passed out from being drunk. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/123 "2014-09-09T14:21:10Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > “She started it” is not an actual defense. I’m aware of that. But she was clearly attacking him at the moment he threw the punch. It’s one thing that _is_ clear from the video. This is not a defense of Rice or his actions. ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/124 "2014-09-09T14:26:01Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Remember when Rothlisberger was suspended four games for alleged rape that he was never prosecuted for? Steelers fans cried foul (and well, they cry a lot anyway) but that’s this situation in reverse in a sense, isn’t it? I missed this in my first pass… This is a good question. Ben was punished pretty hard for something that was just alleged. No charges, no video, no witnesses, no fine. But Goodell and the NFL came down hard on him. Why? What did they have? How could Goodell be so heavy-handed on Roethlisberger, but be so lenient on Rice? I wondered about this when the 2 games were announced. I just assumed (wrongly, I know now) that whatever happened in that elevator wasn’t THAT bad. I have also assumed that the NFL had some evidence on Roethlisberger that made his suspension fair. But was it? Maybe it was too light. But given what we know and what happened on the legal front, it does appear that Ben’s punishment was out of line with Goodell’s idea of justice. But if Ben actually DID what was alleged, and he was convicted in court (or there was a video tape showing what happened), he would have and should have had the same thing happen to him that Rice just did, and rightfully so. Back to this topic…, the NFL really looks bad… I don’t know if Goodell survives this. The NFL is arrogant, so my guess is the owners won’t punt him, and I would bet my life that Goodell won’t resign. But i think this is going to be a rough ride for him, and he may not survive it. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/125 "2014-09-09T14:33:00Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > If I was an evil jackass and beat up my fiancee it would almost certainly have no effect on my career, and there’s a pretty good chance I could manage the situation in such a way my employer wouldn’t even know about it. (I am assuming here that as a first time offender with no history of violent behaviour I could avoid a lengthy stay in the crowbar hotel, which, depressingly, is almost certainly true.) If they did I’d say there isn’t one chance in a hundred I’d lose my job. I am sure my boss would think less of me as a person if they found out, which they likely would not, but as an employee I’d be just as valuable as I was before and could easily talk my way back into their good graces. Do you think all of this would apply if you knocked her out cold in a hotel elevator, if the video of the incident found its way onto the internet, and if your name and your employer’s name were part of the story? I understand that the publicity surrounding this incident was so great precisely _because_ it was an NFL star, but videos showing bad behavior by non-famous people make it online all the time, and they often have similar consequences. The CEO of a company that provides concession services to stadiums and other venues was recently fired for abusing a dog in an elevator. A woman was fired from her job because she dressed for Halloween as a Boston marathon victim. > [@RickJay](#): > > The world is full of jackasses and most of them have jobs and most of their employers don’t care what they do when they aren’t on the clock. Until it beomes news and embarrasses the employer. If Rice had just kept his fists to himself in public, and waited until he got home to pummel his wife, he’d probably still be playing football right now. > [@RickJay](#): > > Criminal justice is quite correctly meted out by the criminal justice system, not people’s employers. You are absolutely correct. Getting fired from your job, however, is not a criminal punishment. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/126 "2014-09-09T14:39:20Z")
[QUOTE=Janay Rice] Ravensnation we love you!" [/QUOTE] Unrequited love. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/127 "2014-09-09T14:44:25Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > “She started it” is not an actual defense. Of course it is. It may not be a great one, and it certainly isn’t an airtight “get out of jail free” card, but it’s the obvious first question you ask. It’s absurd to see no difference between someone who gets hit hitting back, and someone coldcocking complete strangers on the street. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/128 "2014-09-09T14:44:31Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > If she walked away, this video would have done nothing bit positive things for her and her kids… She would have received an outpouring of sympathy and understanding. Sad as it is, that is totally untrue. Some football fans would still call her a golddigger and they would still hate her for damaging the career of someone they like. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/129 "2014-09-09T14:52:03Z")
Not to mention the MRA idiots who would be screaming about how she is stealing Rice’s kid from him. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/130 "2014-09-09T14:52:05Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t share the outrage over the woman’s acknowledgement that she participated in the exchange. By all indications she did, although she obviously got the worse of the exchange. But she did hit him and (from what I’ve read) spit on him. That counts as having a part in it, in my book. > > In general, IMO a lot of people have a difficult time viewing the world as any more complex than simple black-and-white, villians and heroes, victims and criminals. And this leads to the insistance on viewing all victims of spousal/partner abuse as helpless victims of evil brutes (and also adds to the puzzlement over the fact that many choose to stay with the abusers, and the need to attribute it to supposed victim complexes and other dubious motivations). > > Things are not so simple, IRL. > > ETA: pretty much what furt just snuck in. > > Re the hotel security, it’s possible they thought she was passed out from being drunk. Whether or not “things are not so simple”, it’s reasonable to pass a moral judgment that Rice behaved in an indefensible way based on what we’ve seen. Further, she didn’t spit on him, from my viewing – he spit on her, possibly twice. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/131 "2014-09-09T14:52:51Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Thanks for quoting that. I think it explains pretty well why I find all the holier-than-thou folks in this thread pretty distasteful. It must feel so good to throw stones and meet out punishment. Pretty unconstructive if you ask me. This is incredibly stupid. There are thousands of battered women who beg the cops not to arrest their husbands, who refuse to testify at the trial, who see both themselves and their husbands as victims when he gets arrested or convicted, and who make _post hoc_ rationalizations about how they are made for each other. I feel very sorry for those women, just like i feel sorry for Janay Rice. I don’t doubt that she is accurately describing her feelings on the matter in that post. But the fact that she is willing to defend him is, in my opinion, not really relevant when judging his actions, and not really relevant to whether or not he should be playing football. Despite the fact that i’ve attempted to rebut **RickJay** ’s argument above, i can see where he’s coming from regarding the separation between criminal activity and employment. I’ve always believed, for example, the people who have committed crimes in the past deserve a second chance when they’ve done their time. And if the NFL, the owners, and the players weren’t constantly holding themselves up as role models, i might be able to buy the notion that a wife-beater should still be allowed to work and collect a paycheck. But they do set themselves up as role models; they are a big, self-promoting PR machine that constantly talks up their own value to the community. Hell, Rice himself was getting positive publicity not too long ago for his efforts in an anti-bullying campaign! At the time it was plastered all over the Ravens website, and was also noted on [NFL.com](http://NFL.com). I have never, ever looked to celebrities in order to calibrate my moral compass. I think that the world of sports and entertainment probably contains about as many bullies and assholes and jerkoffs as society in general, possibly exacerbated by the sense of entitlement that sometimes comes with wealth and fame. But when the world of sports and entertainment sell themselves to us as role models, it seems to me that refusing to employ those who physically abuse their domestic partners is about the least they can do. By the way, the Ravens website now has a banner at the top: > [@](#): > > Ray Rice Jerseys Exchange > **The Ravens will offer an exchange for Ray Rice jerseys at stadium stores. Details to come.** ---
**Author:** ![JesterX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JesterX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JesterX)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/132 "2014-09-09T14:53:57Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I understand that the publicity surrounding this incident was so great precisely _because_ it was an NFL star, but videos showing bad behavior by non-famous people make it online all the time, and they often have similar consequences. The CEO of a company that provides concession services to stadiums and other venues was recently fired for abusing a dog in an elevator. A woman was fired from her job because she dressed for Halloween as a Boston marathon victim. > Until it beomes news and embarrasses the employer. If Rice had just kept his fists to himself in public, and waited until he got home to pummel his wife, he’d probably still be playing football right now. You are absolutely correct. Getting fired from your job, however, is not a criminal punishment. Also, remember a number of years ago, the lady on the NY Metro North commuter train who verbally berated one of the railroad employees. She worked for a Wall Street firm. That video went viral and they fired her. I specifically remember this one because I thought the punishment was rather harsh. ---
**Author:** ![JesterX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JesterX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JesterX)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/133 "2014-09-09T15:02:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Whether or not “things are not so simple”, it’s reasonable to pass a moral judgment that Rice behaved in an indefensible way based on what we’ve seen. Further, she didn’t spit on him, from my viewing – he spit on her, possibly twice. I concur. I understand that there’s a better, higher definition, video that the hotel showed to the AP that hasn’t been released to the public yet (with audio). MAYBE that shows she spit on him. However for the video that’s out there now, I’m not sure how ANYONE could say Janay had an equal part in the violence. They entered the elevator and she stood innocently by the door when he walked up and either spit at her, or said something. She waved him off and he clocked her the first time. She then approached him as he backed up, and he knocked her out. She was yelling when she approached him, nobody can say she was going to hit him. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/134 "2014-09-09T15:12:25Z")
Yesterday, when the NFL said that it hadn’t seen the elevator video before, my first thought was, “BULLSHIT!” But if [this story](http://deadspin.com/nfl-statement-says-league-never-asked-casino-for-ray-ri-1632356613) is accurate, that might actually be true, but for an even more cynical reason. The NFL were not provided with the elevator video by the police, but the story alleges that the NFL never even requested a copy of the video from the casino itself. As [TMZ](http://www.tmz.com/2014/09/09/nfl-ray-rice-video-elevator-attack-fiancee-casino-footage/) notes, it seems possible that Goodell didn’t actually WANT to see the video, in case it showed something indefensible. > [@](#): > > An NFL source tells us they requested “any and all information” from law enforcement in the criminal case but got nothing because it was a pending case. But the NFL had other options … namely going to the casino or Rice’s lawyer – but the NFL never bothered to ask. > > BTW … it may sound crazy for Rice’s lawyer to voluntarily hand over the video, but the NFL had a lot of leverage … in the form of severe penalties if Rice didn’t ante up the tape. > > So the question … does the NFL have incompetent investigators, or was it just easier to protect a player and turn a blind eye to video that would have forced Goodell’s hand? Both scenarios are pretty disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/135 "2014-09-09T15:18:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Whether or not “things are not so simple”, it’s reasonable to pass a moral judgment that Rice behaved in an indefensible way based on what we’ve seen. That’s true. I did not dispute that. My comments were about the reaction to her acknowledgement that she had a part in the incident. > [@](#): > > Further, she didn’t spit on him, from my viewing – he spit on her, possibly twice. I don’t know. I saw a very blurry version of it blocked by some popups and couldn’t figure out much of what was going on. I’m going by what I heard on the radio driving in to work this morning (CBS 880 in NYC). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/136 "2014-09-09T15:20:36Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > The NFL were not provided with the elevator video by the police, but the story alleges that the NFL never even requested a copy of the video from the casino itself. As [TMZ](http://www.tmz.com/2014/09/09/nfl-ray-rice-video-elevator-attack-fiancee-casino-footage/) notes, it seems possible that Goodell didn’t actually WANT to see the video, in case it showed something indefensible. The casino recently went out of business, so it’s _possible_ they simply couldn’t find anyone to ask. The CBA may also limit what they can request from a player’s criminal defense attorney, too. Definitely looks very bad, regardless. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/137 "2014-09-09T15:29:54Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > “She started it” is not an actual defense. What are you talking about? of course it is. It’s basically the only defense. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/138 "2014-09-09T15:32:19Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > The NFL were not provided with the elevator video by the police, but the story alleges that the NFL never even requested a copy of the video from the casino itself. As [TMZ](http://www.tmz.com/2014/09/09/nfl-ray-rice-video-elevator-attack-fiancee-casino-footage/) notes, it seems possible that Goodell didn’t actually WANT to see the video, in case it showed something indefensible. This seems very unlikely to me. If Goodell thought there was a video out there that could potentially change the story, he would be a complete fool to just refuse to look at it and assume it would just disappear. My best guess would be that he didn’t think it would make a difference anyway. As someone noted earlier, the video didn’t really show anything fundamentally different than what was already known prior to its release, and the only impact seems to be that people are reacting to actually seeing something they only knew about previously. It’s possible that Goodell didn’t appreciate this distinction. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/139 "2014-09-09T15:32:47Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > This is incredibly stupid. > > There are thousands of battered women who beg the cops not to arrest their husbands, who refuse to testify at the trial, who see both themselves and their husbands as victims when he gets arrested or convicted, and who make _post hoc_ rationalizations about how they are made for each other. > > I feel very sorry for those women, just like i feel sorry for Janay Rice. I don’t doubt that she is accurately describing her feelings on the matter in that post. But the fact that she is willing to defend him is, in my opinion, not really relevant when judging his actions, and not really relevant to whether or not he should be playing football. Feel sorry for them all you want. Donate to a battered women’s home. Great for you. But the implication that it’s impossible for a woman to do wrong and that this is some black-and-white issue with her wearing the white hat and him wearing the black is naive. I keep thinking back to the Elin/Tiger situation and the Jay-Z/Solange elevator fight. I don’t remember a lick of outrage there. The hypocrisy just oozes. Ray Rice is guilty here, there’s no doubt. He deserves to be punished, but more importantly both him and her need to be reformed. The more troubling fact is that this is a private issue that the public is weighing in on. They have no idea what the relationship dynamics are. These people need therapy, separate or apart, not jail and they certainly don’t need judgment from the peanut gallery. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126/140 "2014-09-09T15:34:19Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > What are you talking about? of course it is. It’s basically the only defense. No, it isn’t. You can argue self defense, but self defense is “I used force in the face of reasonable fear of imminent harm.” That’s not the same thing as “she started it.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ray-rice-goes-tubthumping/689126.md?page=8)