# Raymond Chandler vs. Dashiell Hammett **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 17, 2005, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raymond-chandler-vs-dashiell-hammett/326670 "2005-10-17T22:59:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Interrobang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/interrobang/32/17463_2.png) [@Interrobang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Interrobang)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raymond-chandler-vs-dashiell-hammett/326670/1 "2005-10-17T22:59:36Z")
Which master noir novelist do you prefer? Five years ago, my answer would’ve been Chandler, without question. I’d just finished reading all of his novels, and even the weakest of them were linguistic treats. And who wouldn’t love Philip Marlowe? At the time, I’d read _The Maltese Falcon_ back in high school and had tried and failed to get into _Red Harvest_, so Hammett was an afterthought obviously not to my taste. Recently, though, I got curious about _The Thin Man_, so picked up a copy of the Library of America’s complete Hammett collection. And the _Thin Man_ was a lot of fun – stronger than the movie, even, which is usually not surprising, but that movie’s awfully popular. And in short order, I read _Red Harvest_, _The Dain Curse_, and _The Maltese Falcon_, and I’m about to start _The Glass Key_. I don’t know what I was thinking. Hammett is _great_. But…I think I’m still a Chandler fan at heart. I’d probably have to reread the Marlowe novels to be certain, but _The Big Sleep_, _The Long Goodbye_, _The Lady in the Lake_ and _Farewell, My Lovely_ are all as good as (or maybe better than) Hammett’s best (so far, _Falcon_). What say ye, fans of private eye novels? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raymond-chandler-vs-dashiell-hammett/326670/2 "2005-10-17T23:26:45Z")
Chandler was a great writer. Hammett was a Great Writer. ---
**Author:** ![Interrobang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/interrobang/32/17463_2.png) [@Interrobang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Interrobang)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raymond-chandler-vs-dashiell-hammett/326670/3 "2005-10-17T23:40:55Z")
I so often find that I prefer great writers to Great Writers, myself. I have a habit of appreciating artistic innovators but really digging the people who come just a little bit later and work on polishing those innovations until they’ve got a crow-attracting shine. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raymond-chandler-vs-dashiell-hammett/326670/4 "2005-10-17T23:52:44Z")
It’s really a toss-up. Chandler was by far the better stylist; Hammett was better at plotting. Chandler was more noir than Hammett – in his world everyone was corrupt, even the police. Hammett’s world assumed that the cops (most of them) were honest (not counting **Red Harvest** ), and his Op usually worked with the police to catch the criminal. I’d say that Chandler’s attitudes were more modern than Hammett, who often was quite close to the traditional cozy mystery than noir. I think I’d give Hammet the edge, but only by a whisker. Both are Great Writers. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raymond-chandler-vs-dashiell-hammett/326670/5 "2005-10-18T00:03:24Z")
> [@Interrobang!?](#): > > I so often find that I prefer great writers to Great Writers, myself. I have a habit of appreciating artistic innovators but really digging the people who come just a little bit later and work on polishing those innovations until they’ve got a crow-attracting shine. Hmm. I started a Nobel Prize Authors book group a few months ago, and this has been a frequent topic of discussion. I find I go back and forth. I started the group because I’d been swung way in the other direction for a long time–hadn’t read a “great” book in years, and was feeling less and less satisfied with everything I read. But my pattern is to dig deep for a while, then get distracted by something shiny and wallow in trash (i.e., effortless fun) for a while. While I tend to read and re-read Chandler when I’m “slumming” it (I put it in quotes because I mean no value judgment; I’ve read everything Elmore Leonard has ever read at least twice each. I’ve read everything James Joyce has read, too, but not all of it more than once.), I think I could read Hammett in either context. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raymond-chandler-vs-dashiell-hammett/326670/6 "2005-10-18T00:05:55Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Chandler was more noir than Hammett – in his world everyone was corrupt, even the police. Hammett’s world assumed that the cops (most of them) were honest (not counting **Red Harvest** ), and his Op usually worked with the police to catch the criminal. I’d say that Chandler’s attitudes were more modern than Hammett, who often was quite close to the traditional cozy mystery than noir. Yes, definitely. But the other side of that coin is that Chandler is more of a one trick pony, to coin a phrase. Hammett’s stuff was more, what, Dickensian; deeper and wider treatments of authentic humanity. The joy of reading Chandler, though, is the hyperbole that made it Noir. But I think you nailed their differences on the head. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raymond-chandler-vs-dashiell-hammett/326670/7 "2005-10-18T00:13:48Z")
Bogart played Marlowe and Spade. It’s a toss up. 🙂 I vote for Chandler. I like the Marlowe character better and I get into the 40’s better than the 20’s. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raymond-chandler-vs-dashiell-hammett/326670/8 "2005-10-18T00:39:03Z")
Can I toss James M. Cain and Tiffany Thayer into the mix? I prefer them to Chandler _or_ Hammett. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raymond-chandler-vs-dashiell-hammett/326670/9 "2005-10-18T00:43:23Z")
Living in L.A. I am partial to Chandler. > [@](#): > > “Down these mean streets a man must go who is not himself mean, who is neither tarnished nor afraid. The detective must be a complete man and a common man and yet an unusual man. He must be, to use a rather weathered phrase, a man of honor. He talks as the man of his age talks, that is, with rude wit, a lively sense of the grotesque, a disgust for sham, and a contempt for pettiness.” > > ``` > — The Simple Art of Murder > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raymond-chandler-vs-dashiell-hammett/326670/10 "2005-10-18T00:43:52Z")
I’d have to choose Cain over Chandler too. Cain was darker, more disturbing. Which brings us inevitably to Jim Thompson, perhaps the darkest of the noirish novelists. But I’m not familiar with Thayer; will investigate. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raymond-chandler-vs-dashiell-hammett/326670/11 "2005-10-18T00:50:42Z")
Ah yes, _The Killer Inside Me_ is great, great distruburbing book. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raymond-chandler-vs-dashiell-hammett/326670/12 "2005-10-18T00:51:26Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > I’m not familiar with Thayer; will investigate. Tiffany Thayer made James Cain look like A.A. Milne. Look for his earlier, ghastlier stuff: _13 Men, 13 Women, Call Her Savage_. ---
**Author:** ![Interrobang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/interrobang/32/17463_2.png) [@Interrobang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Interrobang)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raymond-chandler-vs-dashiell-hammett/326670/13 "2005-10-18T01:00:20Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > Can I toss James M. Cain and Tiffany Thayer into the mix? Absolutely not. It really messes up my hard-assed binary this-or-thatness. Let us never speak of this again. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raymond-chandler-vs-dashiell-hammett/326670/14 "2005-10-18T01:00:50Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > I’d have to choose Cain over Chandler too. Cain was darker, more disturbing. Which brings us inevitably to Jim Thompson, perhaps the darkest of the noirish novelists. But I’m not familiar with Thayer; will investigate. I’ll throw in another vote for Cain; the man aspired (and largely succeeded) in elevating pulp to literature, or perhaps vice versa. _Double Indemnity_, _The Postman Always Rings Twice_, and _Mildred Pierce_ had all the undercurrent of noir but with the trappings of reality. Thompson wasn’t much of a writer in any literary sense, but at his best he’s like a double shot of cheap bourbon, followed by a .38 in the gut. _The Grifters_ is one of the most subversively nihilistic stories I’ve ever read, and _Pop. 1280_ is ruthless. Highsmith at least smoothed out her Pyrrhonism with flowing prose; Thompson just blasts the story out at you like a prizefighter. Hammett was more interesting for his own history than his writing, methinks. I’d rank Chandler as more fun to read, but Hammett more fun to read about. I still haven’t figured out what happened to the chauffeur, though. _snicker_ Please, Og, nobody mention Mickey Spillane. I’d rather read a stack of MSDS docs than a Mike Hammer novel. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raymond-chandler-vs-dashiell-hammett/326670/15 "2005-10-18T01:04:39Z")
I enjoy both and just appreciate the fact that this thread exists as a matter of discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Faust\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e56c9b/32.png) [@Faust\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Faust_1)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raymond-chandler-vs-dashiell-hammett/326670/16 "2005-10-18T01:28:53Z")
I’ve read everything I could find from both of them, and if I could only have read the complete works of one of them I would choose Chandler. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raymond-chandler-vs-dashiell-hammett/326670/17 "2005-10-18T01:29:41Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > Tiffany Thayer made James Cain look like A.A. Milne. Look for his earlier, ghastlier stuff: _13 Men, 13 Women, Call Her Savage_. Just ordered _Call Her Savage_ from [abebooks.com](http://abebooks.com). They don’t have _13m13w_, which is odd; they have dozens of copies each of any of the rarest books I’ve ever searched for. Is there another title? or is it really that rare? ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raymond-chandler-vs-dashiell-hammett/326670/18 "2005-10-18T01:31:04Z")
Boy is this a tough thread. Chandler had probably the best metaphors of anybody(my fave is the one about being about as inconspicuous as a tarantula on a slice of angelfood). Cain wrote some of the greatest dialogue ever. Hammett had Sam Spade and a wicked sense of irony. Although I have to admit to getting Hammett’s and Chandler’s works confused in my head–I believe it was Hammett who wrote the story whose prime clue was that the goldfish were floating a little low but I would have to check–I would never confuse these two with any others, not even Cain. And I’d have to elevate Chandler, not that Hammett isn’t worthy, he’s just a little closer to ordinary. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raymond-chandler-vs-dashiell-hammett/326670/19 "2005-10-18T01:49:39Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Just ordered _Call Her Savage_ from [abebooks.com](http://abebooks.com). They don’t have _13m13w_, which is odd; they have dozens of copies each of any of the rarest books I’ve ever searched for. Is there another title? or is it really that rare? No, it’s two different books: _13 Men_ (1930) and _13 Women_ (1932). Be sure and try to see the 1932 Clara Bow film of _Call Her Savage_: very pre-Code! ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raymond-chandler-vs-dashiell-hammett/326670/20 "2005-10-18T01:54:29Z")
And now, [a recycled **Hal** post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5560023&postcount=2): Ohhh…_Raymond_ Chandler… “Look at me, I’m Philip Marlowe…could I _be_ solving more crimes?” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raymond-chandler-vs-dashiell-hammett/326670.md?page=2)