# RCC cardinal says they'll shut down all hospitals if they have to **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 28, 2012, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rcc-cardinal-says-theyll-shut-down-all-hospitals-if-they-have-to/614218 "2012-02-28T03:03:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rcc-cardinal-says-theyll-shut-down-all-hospitals-if-they-have-to/614218/21 "2012-02-28T18:33:10Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > I think many states require state approval for closure of a hospital. Presumably that would not be easy to secure for a threatened mass closing. It might require state approval to hang a closed sign on it, but it doesn’t require anyone’s approval for the people who work there to quit, en masse, due to being forced to do something against their conscience. The state can’t force them to work at gunpoint. It will then take time for the state to find replacements. And the building owner is under no obligation to allow them to use the building. Which then requires a time consuming eminent domain procedure to take over. They can indeed _effectively_ close it, for quite a long period of time, regardless of anyone else’s wishes. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rcc-cardinal-says-theyll-shut-down-all-hospitals-if-they-have-to/614218/22 "2012-02-28T18:37:51Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Who Is Jesus Christ? This. Jesus said to render unto Caesar that which belongs to Caesar, and to God that which belongs to God. There’s no excuse for this kind of silliness. For the Christians here, did you ever notice that “VICARIUS CHRISTI”, a title of the Pope, when translated to Greek, gives the phrase that is transliterated “Antichrist”? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rcc-cardinal-says-theyll-shut-down-all-hospitals-if-they-have-to/614218/23 "2012-02-28T18:40:05Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > It might require state approval to hang a closed sign on it, but it doesn’t require anyone’s approval for the people who work there to quit, en masse, due to being forced to do something against their conscience. The state can’t force them to work at gunpoint. It will then take time for the state to find replacements. And the building owner is under no obligation to allow them to use the building. Which then requires a time consuming eminent domain procedure to take over. > > They can indeed _effectively_ close it, for quite a long period of time, regardless of anyone else’s wishes. I would assume most of the workers at typical Catholic-owned institutions aren’t quite as daft as Cardinal-fuck-a-doodle of Chicago. The only people who would quit en masse are those that are too ideological to think clearly. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rcc-cardinal-says-theyll-shut-down-all-hospitals-if-they-have-to/614218/24 "2012-02-28T18:40:28Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > It might require state approval to hang a closed sign on it, but it doesn’t require anyone’s approval for the people who work there to quit, en masse, due to being forced to do something against their conscience. The regulation at issue is one requiring employers to buy employees healthcare with Contraception covered. The people complaining are largely the Catholic Hierarchy. I guess a few employees might be hard core Catholics that would quit, but I’m not really seeing much likelihood of doctors and nurses quitting en masse over getting what’s essentially an extra benefit. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rcc-cardinal-says-theyll-shut-down-all-hospitals-if-they-have-to/614218/25 "2012-02-28T18:48:27Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > It might require state approval to hang a closed sign on it, but it doesn’t require anyone’s approval for the people who work there to quit, en masse, due to being forced to do something against their conscience. The state can’t force them to work at gunpoint. It will then take time for the state to find replacements. And the building owner is under no obligation to allow them to use the building. Which then requires a time consuming eminent domain procedure to take over. > > They can indeed _effectively_ close it, for quite a long period of time, regardless of anyone else’s wishes. The doctors nurses, techs and administrators of a hospital are all going to quit en masse? I rather suspect they will not, considering that every single one of them needs to have a job of one sort or another, in order to eat. The RCC is going to mothball a modern hospital, and destroy all of the equipment, rather than sell it? I suppose they could spend tens of millions of dollars to convert it into office space that nobody wants. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rcc-cardinal-says-theyll-shut-down-all-hospitals-if-they-have-to/614218/26 "2012-02-28T19:05:41Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > (along with Advocate, whom I do not believe is Catholic, but I could be wrong about that) You’re correct. I had to do quite a bit of digging around on Advocate’s site to find it, but it was formed by the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and the United Church of Christ. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rcc-cardinal-says-theyll-shut-down-all-hospitals-if-they-have-to/614218/27 "2012-02-28T19:12:13Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I would assume most of the workers at typical Catholic-owned institutions aren’t quite as daft as Cardinal-fuck-a-doodle of Chicago. > > The only people who would quit en masse are those that are too ideological to think clearly. And what if management tells the workers “come in to work if you want, but we’re not paying you?” How many will show up to keep the hospital running? ETA: And what company will deliver drugs, food and other consumables to a hospital who’s management refuses to pay for them? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rcc-cardinal-says-theyll-shut-down-all-hospitals-if-they-have-to/614218/28 "2012-02-28T19:19:48Z")
Quite apart from state law, CMS imposes pretty hefty fines (as in, billions) on hospitals which close without providing notice as required by statute. I think six months is the minimum. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rcc-cardinal-says-theyll-shut-down-all-hospitals-if-they-have-to/614218/29 "2012-02-28T19:21:52Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > And what if management tells the workers “come in to work if you want, but we’re not paying you?” How many will show up to keep the hospital running? I suspect stopping payment of all employees would be seen as “closing” in the eyes of Illinois’s judges and regulators. And I can’t imagine telling doctors at the ICU that they can keep treating their patients, but the Church is withholding their paychecks would do much in the PR dept. for the Church. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rcc-cardinal-says-theyll-shut-down-all-hospitals-if-they-have-to/614218/30 "2012-02-28T19:36:25Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Quite apart from state law, CMS imposes pretty hefty fines (as in, billions) on hospitals which close without providing notice as required by statute. I think six months is the minimum. And the hospital is no doubt set up as some sort of limited liability corporation. They can assess the fines against a closed building, and that’s it. A few years down the road, when the state finally aquires the building and equipment, they can reopen it. Until then, who runs the hospital? > [@Simplicio](#): > > I suspect stopping payment of all employees would be seen as “closing” in the eyes of Illinois’s judges and regulators. And I can’t imagine telling doctors at the ICU that they can keep treating their patients, but the Church is withholding their paychecks would do much in the PR dept. for the Church. I’m not rendering an opinion on the PR problems it would cause. I’m only pointing out that they can indeed close it any time they like, and no one has the power to stop them from doing so. If they are willing to take the PR hit, are you willing to take the hospital availability hit? They can take their ball and go home if they choose, and claiming otherwise is just plain false. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rcc-cardinal-says-theyll-shut-down-all-hospitals-if-they-have-to/614218/31 "2012-02-28T19:46:10Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > I’m not rendering an opinion on the PR problems it would cause. I’m only pointing out that they can indeed close it any time they like, and no one has the power to stop them from doing so. If they are willing to take the PR hit, are you willing to take the hospital availability hit? They can take their ball and go home if they choose, and claiming otherwise is just plain false. I don’t think that’s true. Firing all your employees is in fact closing your hospital. There are apparently laws in Illinois to prevent that from happening without informing the State. Plus, as a practical matter, I doubt most of the money that goes into running the hospital actually belongs to the Church. People gave it to them to run the hospital and in payment for treatments and the like, if they try and “take it and go home” I suspect those same people are going to want it back. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rcc-cardinal-says-theyll-shut-down-all-hospitals-if-they-have-to/614218/32 "2012-02-28T19:48:12Z")
Am I the only one seeing a parallel in what the RCC is threatening in (over?)reaction to Obama and what Obama is threatening to do in Texas? ---
**Author:** ![Scholar\_Beardpig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de053/32.png) [@Scholar\_Beardpig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scholar_Beardpig)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rcc-cardinal-says-theyll-shut-down-all-hospitals-if-they-have-to/614218/33 "2012-02-28T19:50:37Z")
I, for one, welcome this news. The short-term cost will be hard to bear, for those who rely on those hospitals, but the long-term benefit - that people will see just what sort of people these bishops and cardinals are, and begin to flee the sinking, rat-infested ship that is the Roman Catholic Church, dislodging the chains it uses to drag humanity into the rocks and reefs of mediocrity and evil - will be worth it. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rcc-cardinal-says-theyll-shut-down-all-hospitals-if-they-have-to/614218/34 "2012-02-28T19:52:34Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Am I the only one seeing a parallel in what the RCC is threatening in (over?)reaction to Obama and what Obama is threatening to do in Texas? I don’t think the RCC is threatening to do anything. One Cardinal is BSing on his blog. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rcc-cardinal-says-theyll-shut-down-all-hospitals-if-they-have-to/614218/35 "2012-02-28T20:06:36Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > And the hospital is no doubt set up as some sort of limited liability corporation. They can assess the fines against a closed building, and that’s it. A few years down the road, when the state finally aquires the building and equipment, they can reopen it. Until then, who runs the hospital? The hospitals are typically set up as LLCs wholly owned by ministries. Parent companies are generally responsibilities of their wholly owned subsidiaries, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rcc-cardinal-says-theyll-shut-down-all-hospitals-if-they-have-to/614218/36 "2012-02-28T20:08:19Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The hospitals are typically set up as LLCs wholly owned by ministries. Parent companies are generally responsibilities of their wholly owned subsidiaries, you know. And things are no doubt set up so that the liabilities of the hospital are not liabilities of the Church. So what do you think the state can do if they quit and go home? > [@Simplicio](#): > > I don’t think that’s true. Firing all your employees is in fact closing your hospital. There are apparently laws in Illinois to prevent that from happening without informing the State. > > Plus, as a practical matter, I doubt most of the money that goes into running the hospital actually belongs to the Church. People gave it to them to run the hospital and in payment for treatments and the like, if they try and “take it and go home” I suspect those same people are going to want it back. They don’t have to take any money. All they have to do is stop paying people, lock the doors, and leave everything there. The state can not prevent them from doing that. All it can do is fine the corporation that runs the hospital, after the fact, and take over the corporation’s assets. If everything is there in the corporate accounts, and in the building, that is all the state can do. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rcc-cardinal-says-theyll-shut-down-all-hospitals-if-they-have-to/614218/37 "2012-02-28T20:14:12Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > The doctors nurses, techs and administrators of a hospital are all going to quit en masse? I rather suspect they will not, considering that every single one of them needs to have a job of one sort or another, in order to eat. > > The RCC is going to mothball a modern hospital, and destroy all of the equipment, rather than sell it? I suppose they could spend tens of millions of dollars to convert it into office space that nobody wants. Often the workers at these Catholic hospitals are not Catholic. At our current Church owned chain the number of catholic doctors and nurses is almost exactly equal to their population in the community as a whole. They are forced these “ethics” based on their acceptance of employment not due to their personal beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rcc-cardinal-says-theyll-shut-down-all-hospitals-if-they-have-to/614218/38 "2012-02-28T20:19:08Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > They don’t have to take any money. All they have to do is stop paying people, lock the doors, and leave everything there. The state can not prevent them from doing that. All it can do is fine the corporation that runs the hospital, after the fact, and take over the corporation’s assets. If everything is there in the corporate accounts, and in the building, that is all the state can do. If you want to get out of the hospital business, you sell the hospital to someone else, take the proceeds and apply them to non hospital activities. Or, you can take assets worth billions of dollars and flush them down the proverbial toilet, while endangering the lives of thousands of hospital patients. All to make a point about birth control. While they could theoretically do just that, they’re not going to. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rcc-cardinal-says-theyll-shut-down-all-hospitals-if-they-have-to/614218/39 "2012-02-28T20:21:04Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > And things are no doubt set up so that the liabilities of the hospital are not liabilities of the Church. So what do you think the state can do if they quit and go home? > > They don’t have to take any money. All they have to do is stop paying people, lock the doors, and leave everything there. The state can not prevent them from doing that. All it can do is fine the corporation that runs the hospital, after the fact, and take over the corporation’s assets. If everything is there in the corporate accounts, and in the building, that is all the state can do. Again, even if the Catholic Church is evil enough to go against the law and leave communities without hospitals, you can expect that: 1. State legislatures will pass emergency laws that keep them functional. 2. The Catholic Church isn’t going to get any government money to keep hospitals open any more. 3. People, who already think the Catholic Church is completely full of shit (including most Catholics) will think even less of them. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rcc-cardinal-says-theyll-shut-down-all-hospitals-if-they-have-to/614218/40 "2012-02-28T20:36:03Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Fuck 'em. If it’s more important to the Catholic Church of the John Paul II era to eliminate their secular social services rather than to render unto Caesar, then they should feel free to do so. Plenty of tax exempt churches serve no charitable purpose whatsoever. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rcc-cardinal-says-theyll-shut-down-all-hospitals-if-they-have-to/614218.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rcc-cardinal-says-theyll-shut-down-all-hospitals-if-they-have-to/614218.md?page=3)