# Re: Babes on doorsteps...I THOUGHT I smelled a rat in that straw man! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [November 24, 2008, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-babes-on-doorsteps-i-thought-i-smelled-a-rat-in-that-straw-man/474328 "2008-11-24T21:41:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-babes-on-doorsteps-i-thought-i-smelled-a-rat-in-that-straw-man/474328/21 "2008-11-25T05:23:00Z")
Oh, and BTW: [Linky](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2822/did-people-actually-abandon-babies-on-doorsteps) ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-babes-on-doorsteps-i-thought-i-smelled-a-rat-in-that-straw-man/474328/22 "2008-11-25T05:28:53Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > (bolding mine) > > Eschewing sex during pregnancy and lactation was something they did during _mediaeval_ times. > > Mediaeval != Matriarchal, as I’m sure is obvious to most people. Right on! And, actually, lactation as pregnancy prevention works pretty well \*as \*the “natural mammalian system of birth control practiced by animals and primitive people”. \*Refusing \*sex during lactation isn’t natural at all for humans. If you’re hunter-gatherer skinny and breastfeeding on demand and round the clock, it’s actually quite effective contraception up until the child is age 4 for women in current “primitive” tribal societies. Infertile sex during that time increases the mating bond, ensuring that the paternal figure sticks around to help feed the baby and mother both. But it was better eating and more body fat that made that change, not patriarchy. Well fed women and women who can afford to feed wet nurses do not derive contraceptive effects from breastfeeding. Nor, of course, do women who abandon their infants, which I seem to recall was what this column was actually about. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-babes-on-doorsteps-i-thought-i-smelled-a-rat-in-that-straw-man/474328/23 "2008-11-25T05:34:26Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > …which I seem to recall was what this column was actually about. Are you suggesting we should actually discuss the stuff that this column was actually about?! Heretic!! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-babes-on-doorsteps-i-thought-i-smelled-a-rat-in-that-straw-man/474328/24 "2008-11-25T05:49:40Z")
[Related column on use of silphium by the Romans for birth control](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2676/did-the-ancient-romans-use-a-natural-herb-for-birth-control) [Related column on ancient matriarchies.](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2742/earth-mother-has-there-ever-been-a-true-matriarchal-culture) ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-babes-on-doorsteps-i-thought-i-smelled-a-rat-in-that-straw-man/474328/25 "2008-11-25T06:54:38Z")
Even if a man’s a complete uncaring sexist pig, it’s still in his interest for there to be such a thing as birth control. If he gets a woman pregnant, he may face her father and his shotgun. If she’s worried about getting pregnant, it’s harder for him to con his way into her bedroom. Sure, a woman without birth control has a lot more to lose than he does, but why should he suppress birth control and cut off his nose to spite his face, especially when there are so many other ways to hurt women that won’t hurt him at all? I think lack of birth control has more to do with traditional sexual morality and with lacking technology than with sexism. ---
**Author:** ![bmoreluv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@bmoreluv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bmoreluv)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-babes-on-doorsteps-i-thought-i-smelled-a-rat-in-that-straw-man/474328/26 "2008-11-25T08:37:18Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > …Because I get the impression that the only things available to ancient women would be in the category ‘stupidly dangerous drugs that could also make YOU dead’ - which would seem like a very good reason not to do it! Well, if you think things are really all that peachy today, you might want to have a look at these… [http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,878746-3,00.html](http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,878746-3,00.html) [http://www.texasinjurylaw.com/Fenphen/fen-phen\_lawsuit.htm](http://www.texasinjurylaw.com/Fenphen/fen-phen_lawsuit.htm) [http://www.texasinjurylaw.com/Fenphen/fen-phen\_lawsuit.htm](http://www.texasinjurylaw.com/Fenphen/fen-phen_lawsuit.htm) ---
**Author:** ![bmoreluv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@bmoreluv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bmoreluv)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-babes-on-doorsteps-i-thought-i-smelled-a-rat-in-that-straw-man/474328/27 "2008-11-25T08:58:58Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > Now that we have somebody who actually knows something in the thread 😉 - _was_ there such a thing as a workable abortion method before modern times? Apart from infant exposure after birth (if you count that as an ‘abortion’ method)? Because I get the impression that the only things available to ancient women would be in the category ‘stupidly dangerous drugs that could also make YOU dead’ - which would seem like a very good reason not to do it! You might want to check out this link, then… [http://www.drnorthrup.com/womenshealth/healthcenter/topic\_details.php?topic\_id=126](http://www.drnorthrup.com/womenshealth/healthcenter/topic_details.php?topic_id=126) ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-babes-on-doorsteps-i-thought-i-smelled-a-rat-in-that-straw-man/474328/28 "2008-11-25T12:41:55Z")
How the $\*@# are we talking about _fen-phen_ now? I’m so lost. So so lost… > [@](#): > > You might want to check out this link, then… > > [Blood Sugar: Your Key To Vibrant Health | Christiane Northrup, M.D.](http://www.drnorthrup.com/womensheal...p?topic_id=126) That link is advocating, best as I can tell, cervical mucus only “FAM”, which has an effectiveness level right around a diaphragm without spermicide. The effectiveness numbers she’s using are \*not \*for this method, but for symptothermal FAM. Effective FAM and NFP - the symptothermal models - weren’t practical until the invention of digital thermometers. I assure you the mythical gynocrats weren’t using them. And, to update my resume: WhyNot, Herbalist Neopagan Wymmyn FAMer ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-babes-on-doorsteps-i-thought-i-smelled-a-rat-in-that-straw-man/474328/29 "2008-11-25T14:35:28Z")
> [@bmoreluv](#): > > Can i just get an answer here why access to birth control and abortion was not mentioned in this article about hordes of abandoned infants? I don’t think this is so hard to understand, unless y’all really are a pack of pig-headed men. Because you didn’t write the article. The point was a minor one, but just happened to touch on your own personal bete noir. Two examples were given, but only someone with an ax to grind would assume that meant that Cecil was saying that others weren’t possible. Indeed, “illegitimacy” implies a lack of access to birth control and abortion. Heck, the entire question implies it – if they were freely available then there wouldn’t be an issue about abandoning babies. But since they weren’t, they were not the real reason why women themselves were willing to give up their babies. They gave them up not because of birth control or lack of abortion (and, really, abortion always existed – it may have been illegal, but it happened all the time prior to legalization). It was because they were worried about being able to care for the baby, or because of the social stigma of an illegitimate child. Or don’t you really care about what those women were thinking? Aren’t those women’s feelings important? Cecil is writing a column and is not trying to get sidetracked in listing all the possible reasons for it. It just happens to be a touchy subject for you, and you automatically assume it’s some sort of plot simply because you only see the world only terms of your own biases, which is this case, are so strong you can’t conceive of any other possibility. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-babes-on-doorsteps-i-thought-i-smelled-a-rat-in-that-straw-man/474328/30 "2008-11-25T16:35:40Z")
Cecil doesn’t often stop by the Message Boards, and then rarely to explain himself, especially when the explanation is pretty much obvious, as **Reality Chuck** and others have said. Please remember that Cecil’s columns are limited in space (they’re designed for and syndicated for newspapers, with a word limit) and so peripheral issues usually get left aside. ---
**Author:** ![bmoreluv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@bmoreluv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bmoreluv)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-babes-on-doorsteps-i-thought-i-smelled-a-rat-in-that-straw-man/474328/31 "2008-11-25T16:36:16Z")
W > [@WhyNot](#): > > How the $\*@# are we talking about _fen-phen_ now? I’m so lost. So so lost… > > That link is advocating, best as I can tell, cervical mucus only “FAM”, which has an effectiveness level right around a diaphragm without spermicide. The effectiveness numbers she’s using are \*not \*for this method, but for symptothermal FAM. Effective FAM and NFP - the symptothermal models - weren’t practical until the invention of digital thermometers. I assure you the mythical gynocrats weren’t using them. > > And, to update my resume: > > WhyNot, > Herbalist > Neopagan > Wymmyn > FAMer I’m just trying to educate people about women’s issues. Here’s another link about native american birth control; [http://library.thinkquest.org/TQ0312140/ThinkQuest/Cheyenne/Native%20Americans%20in%20Medicine.htm](http://library.thinkquest.org/TQ0312140/ThinkQuest/Cheyenne/Native%20Americans%20in%20Medicine.htm) Also, I live about 45 miles east of a functioning matriarchy. You can even visit them, and they will tell you all about it. If you are so committed to women’s issues, why are you behaving like a macho jerk? ---
**Author:** ![bmoreluv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@bmoreluv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bmoreluv)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-babes-on-doorsteps-i-thought-i-smelled-a-rat-in-that-straw-man/474328/32 "2008-11-25T16:45:26Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Because you didn’t write the article. > > The point was a minor one, but just happened to touch on your own personal bete noir. Two examples were given, but only someone with an ax to grind would assume that meant that Cecil was saying that others weren’t possible. > > Indeed, “illegitimacy” implies a lack of access to birth control and abortion. Heck, the entire question implies it – if they were freely available then there wouldn’t be an issue about abandoning babies. But since they weren’t, they were not the real reason why women themselves were willing to give up their babies. They gave them up not because of birth control or lack of abortion (and, really, abortion always existed – it may have been illegal, but it happened all the time prior to legalization). It was because they were worried about being able to care for the baby, or because of the social stigma of an illegitimate child. > > Or don’t you really care about what those women were thinking? Aren’t those women’s feelings important? > > Cecil is writing a column and is not trying to get sidetracked in listing all the possible reasons for it. It just happens to be a touchy subject for you, and you automatically assume it’s some sort of plot simply because you only see the world only terms of your own biases, which is this case, are so strong you can’t conceive of any other possibility. Cecil said; “Because it’s a secondary consideration. The primary factors are poverty and illegitimacy, as I said. Presumably if the woman weren’t poor, she’d have better access to birth control and abortion.” Let me put this another way; When considering this question; Why were black people enslaved in America? Which of these two answers carries a racial bias; 1. Inferior weaponry caused them to be easily overcome. or; 2. Not all persons were granted full civil rights under the law. ---
**Author:** ![bmoreluv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@bmoreluv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bmoreluv)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-babes-on-doorsteps-i-thought-i-smelled-a-rat-in-that-straw-man/474328/33 "2008-11-25T17:54:08Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > OH! I’m sorry, I didn’t realize we were reading a book of myth. “Pagan times”? Seriously? Is that the one where we were all herbalists and midwives and sat around embracing our fat stone goddesses in peace and harmony until the nasty brutish men from the North came with their Sky Gods and made everything all icky with their witch trials and the burning times and 9 million Wiccans killed in a holocaust hundreds of years before their religion was invented by a horny Brit? > > It’s myth. Myth myth myth. It’s there in the title. Myth. > > WhyNot, > Herbalist > Neopagan > Wymmyn Have you ever heard of Joseph Campbell? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-babes-on-doorsteps-i-thought-i-smelled-a-rat-in-that-straw-man/474328/34 "2008-11-25T17:55:52Z")
> [@bmoreluv](#): > > Also, I live about 45 miles east of a functioning matriarchy. You can even visit them, and they will tell you all about it. Perhaps you can tell us who you’re talking about, since we don’t know where you live. ---
**Author:** ![bmoreluv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@bmoreluv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bmoreluv)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-babes-on-doorsteps-i-thought-i-smelled-a-rat-in-that-straw-man/474328/35 "2008-11-25T18:09:43Z")
It’s called Acoma Pueblo, just one of many matriarchal pueblos here in New Mexico. There’s Zuni pueblo, further out…where before white influence, children were not assigned gender by the adults…it was entirely up to the children to decide which gender they would identify as, regardless of what was in their skivvies. In Acoma, the men have their own kiva in the center of the village, the ‘boy’s club,’ if you will. Women are not allowed, nor is the boy’s club allowed to dominate and metatastize throughout every facet of human life, as it has in ours. I do not mean to say that it is a utopia, by any means, but if i could live there, i would. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-babes-on-doorsteps-i-thought-i-smelled-a-rat-in-that-straw-man/474328/36 "2008-11-25T18:46:52Z")
I’m not sure the Acoma are a functioning matriarchy, but then maybe I have the wrong searches. For example, from here at the University of New Mexico: [The Business of Culture at Acoma Pueblo:](http://www.unm.edu/~hmuller/The%20Business%20of%20Culture%20at%20Acoma%20Pueblo.htm) > [@](#): > > As Ms. Tenorio continued to work on promoting the tourism center in the early 1990’s, she realized that the existing building could not handle the increasing inflow of tourists. She decided to request funds from the Acoma Tribal Council to expand the facility. As part of this expansion request, she included a plan to expand the restroom as there was only one facility for everyone. > > She realized that dealing with the members of the Tribal Council could be difficult. The traditional form of Pueblo government is associated, for the most part, with cultures characterized by reliance on a council of elders, highly valued communal and kinship bonds, and decision making through consensus building. Moreover, a traditional council does not consider a woman’s voice in decisions. Traditional tribal members consider a woman’s place to be in the home and not in tribal governmental affairs. Tension between these frameworks of governance and contemporary business organization introduced an important political dynamic for Acoma tourism development (see Appendix B for comparisons between Anglo-American and traditional Acoma Pueblo cultural patterns). > > Ms. Tenorio had to learn how to properly address the male tribal council members in order for her ideas to be taken seriously. Because of her gender and the traditional tribal decision patterns, she would have trouble addressing the Council about the pressing issues she recognized as important to the tourism center. (you spoke in present tense, so I’m assuming you weren’t talking about the past of the Acoma, which has a tremendous amount of uncertainty due to the massive records destruction (oral and otherwise) when De Onate and the Spanish massacred them.) If you had in mind the reports of Dr. Hammond _et al_, as reported in the book _Long Before Stonewall_, my recollection is that the comments on fluid gender were really referring to special, transgendered or possibly even intersex individuals, not children in general. But then it’s been a while since I read that book, and I’m at work and don’t have it near me. Perhaps you can give me some sources you’re thinking of, just out of an information-gathering standpoint? ---
**Author:** ![bmoreluv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@bmoreluv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bmoreluv)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-babes-on-doorsteps-i-thought-i-smelled-a-rat-in-that-straw-man/474328/37 "2008-11-25T18:57:57Z")
My sources, as always, are from the people themselves. I believe it to be the height of arrogance to assume that people wouldn’t be experts on their own dang culture. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-babes-on-doorsteps-i-thought-i-smelled-a-rat-in-that-straw-man/474328/38 "2008-11-25T19:07:51Z")
> [@bmoreluv](#): > > My sources, as always, are from the people themselves. I believe it to be the height of arrogance to assume that people wouldn’t be experts on their own dang culture. Apparently, Margaret Mead was spoofed pretty well by some of the cultures she was studying. And this: > [@bmoreluv](#): > > There’s Zuni pueblo, further out…where before white influence, children were not assigned gender by the adults…it was entirely up to the children to decide which gender they would identify as, regardless of what was in their skivvies. I’m really going to have to ask for a cite. I think this would be the only culture ever that had this. Are you sure this isn’t just tribal folklore, along the lines of how things were all better before the white people showed up? Any proof at all that this was really the case? ---
**Author:** ![bmoreluv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@bmoreluv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bmoreluv)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-babes-on-doorsteps-i-thought-i-smelled-a-rat-in-that-straw-man/474328/39 "2008-11-25T19:12:01Z")
When i visited acoma on one of my many visits, the women were just finishing up painting the interior of the church pink. I was told by our tour guide that the women kicked the men out at a certain point, and did it all in private. What with the handing down of property from mother to daughter, i’d say that’s a fair deal. What i pointed out was that men are not allowed to dominate every facet, as in ours. I didn’t say they were castrated. And anyway, what’s so superior about our psychotically suicidal culture? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-babes-on-doorsteps-i-thought-i-smelled-a-rat-in-that-straw-man/474328/40 "2008-11-25T19:20:24Z")
> [@bmoreluv](#): > > My sources, as always, are from the people themselves. I believe it to be the height of arrogance to assume that people wouldn’t be experts on their own dang culture. Likewise, it would be a height of ignorance to automatically assume that a person on a message board who has not presented a Q&E, nor been around long enough to have been validated as a person who is an expert in the field, would have accurate information and/or be conveying it properly. Plus just because a person is a member of a tribe doesn’t mean they know their tribe’s history. Witness the number of grown-ups in Society in general who think Henry Ford invented the automobile. So you’ll forgive me if your anonymous second-hand anecdotal information posted on a message board is at the stage where folks who are legitimately interested in the subject might be asking for some first-hand documentation of said claims. Surely if it’s true there’s some documentation readily available. FTR, not every question is an attack on you, some of us actually care about topics enough to just ask for further information. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-babes-on-doorsteps-i-thought-i-smelled-a-rat-in-that-straw-man/474328.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-babes-on-doorsteps-i-thought-i-smelled-a-rat-in-that-straw-man/474328.md?page=3)