# Re Bengazi post closed by Marley23 in Elections **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 12, 2013, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bengazi-post-closed-by-marley23-in-elections/658141 "2013-05-12T10:56:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bengazi-post-closed-by-marley23-in-elections/658141/101 "2013-05-15T03:34:42Z")
> [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](#): > > And I’m asking you. If you don’t actually have any evidence, then that’s cool. > > If you’re not even asserting it, then why would I spend time digging up cites for your not-an-argument? Because you seemed to know what you were talking about, and I had no time to search for myself. I think you’re taking what I’m saying as an attack. I think Behghazi is utterly trumped up nonsense, but I’m interested in the facts of the situation. Since you don’t know, I’ll look it up myself when I get a chance. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bengazi-post-closed-by-marley23-in-elections/658141/102 "2013-05-15T04:35:49Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Because you seemed to know what you were talking about, and I had no time to search for myself. > > I think you’re taking what I’m saying as an attack. I think Behghazi is utterly trumped up nonsense, but I’m interested in the facts of the situation. > > Since you don’t know, I’ll look it up myself when I get a chance. I don’t know how to take it. If it’s not an argument, then I’m not sure whether it’s worth taking at all. I do think the evidence that tends to point against the conclusion that the ambassador was responsible for the size of the security detail in Benghazi. For one, I seriously doubt that ambassadors get to make decisions on security details. Ambassadors are diplomats with no training or expertise in security matters, so they would presumably not be entrusted with making those life or death decisions. And if the ambassador was able to decide the size of his own security contingent, the ambassador would not have been forced to ask repeatedly for additional security, he could have just ordered it for himself. Second, both the Pickering report and Obama have said that fault lies with the State Dept., not the ambassador. I have a difficult time conforming those conclusions with the idea that the ambassador was responsible for cutting his own security. I also admit that I find it somewhat distasteful to blame the dead guy. While that may be distasteful, I guess it could also be fair. So let me know what you find. I’ll also say that, while I think calling the murder of an ambassador and three other Americans “trumped up” is kind of mind boggling, I don’t think this is the type of scandal that should be compared to events like Watergate. The ultimate blame for the murders lies with the terrorists. If the Obama admin should have done more – and it appears that (almost) everyone agrees that they should have – then that’s a tragedy that those responsible will have to live with. And if it turns out that the Obama admin did lie – and I think the jury’s still out on that one – then that’s shameful, but not exactly world shattering. But I will never, ever understand those who say that it doesn’t matter whether the Obama admin lied. I’m surprised that no one else jumped up and tried to distance themselves from it. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bengazi-post-closed-by-marley23-in-elections/658141/103 "2013-05-15T04:52:24Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Not quite. > > What they originally said was “the attacks in Benghazi were spontaneously inspired by the protests at the US Embassy in Cairo and evolved into a direct assault …” So what’s mentioned is not a demonstration taking place at Benghazi, but rather attacks inspired by Cairo protests. > > Significant in the initial draft were “we do know that Islamic extremists with ties to al Qa’ida participated in the attack”, evidence of the involvement of members of Ansar al-Sharia, and reference to previous Benghazi attacks. The omission of these in subsequent drafts certainly helped invite the erroneous conclusion that what happened in Benghazi was a protest gone wrong. Victoria Nuland didn’t insert ‘Demonstrations’ and cross-out the word ‘attack’ into the drafts being circulated. This is the text that Victoria Nuland requested revisions: > [@](#): > > Sept. 14, 8:59 pm > > • The currently available information suggests that the demonstrations in Benghazi were spontaneously inspired by the protests at the U.S. Embassy in Cairo and evolved into a direct assault against the U.S. Consulate and subsequently its annex. This assessment may change as additional information is collected and analyzed and currently available information continues to be evaluated. On 10 September the Agency we notified Embassy Cairo of social media reports calling for a demonstration and encouraging jihadists to break into the Embassy. > > • The investigation is ongoing as to who is responsible for the violence, although the crowd almost certainly was a mix of individuals. That being said, there are indications We do know that Islamic extremists participated in the violent demonstrations. > > • Initial press reporting linked the attack to Ansar al-Sharia. The group has since released a statement that its leadership did not order the attacks, but did not deny that some of its members were involved. Ansar al-Sharia’s Facebook page aims to spread Sharia in Libya and emphasizes the need for jihad to counter what it views as false interpretations of Islam, according to an open source study. > > • The wide availability of weapons and experienced fighters in Libya almost certainly contribute to the lethality of the attacks. > > • The Agency has produced numerous pieces on the threat of extremists linked to al-Qa’ida in Benghazi and eastern Libya. These noted that, sSince April, there have been at least five other attacks against foreign interests in Benghazi by unidentified assailants, including the June attack against the British Ambassador’s convoy. We cannot rule out the individuals has previously surveilled the U.S. facilities, also contributing to the efficacy of the attacks. > > • The U.S. Government is working w/ Libyan authorities and intelligence partners in an effort to help bring to justice those responsible for the deaths of U.S. citizens. > > ABC reports that State Department spokesman Victoria Nuland didn’t want to name Ansar al-Sharia in order not to "prejudice the investigation > [@](#): > > Sept. 15, 9:45 am > > • The currently available information suggests that the demonstrations in Benghazi were spontaneously inspired by the protests at the U.S. Embassy in Cairo and evolved into a direct assault against the U.S. Consulate and subsequently its annex. This assessment may change as additional information is collected and analyzed and currently available information continues to be evaluated. On 10 September the Agency notified Embassy Cairo of social media reports calling for a demonstration and encouraging jihadists to break into the Embassy. > > • The investigation is ongoing as to who is responsible for the violence, although the crowd almost certainly was a mix of individuals. That being said, there are indications that Islamic extremists participated in the violent demonstrations. > > • The wide availability of weapons and experienced fighters in Libya almost certainly contribute to the lethality of the attacks. > > • The Agency has produced numerous pieces on the threat of extremists linked to al-Qa’ida in Benghazi and eastern Libya. Since April, there have been at least five other attacks against foreign interests in Benghazi by unidentified assailants, including the June attack against the British Ambassador’s convoy. We cannot rule out the individuals has previously surveilled the U.S. facilities, also contributing to the efficacy of the attacks. > > • The U.S. Government is working w/ Libyan authorities and intelligence partners in an effort to help bring to justice those responsible for the deaths of U.S. citizens. > > ABC reports that State Department spokesman Victoria Nuland wanted to have the paragraph concerning “numerous pieces” removed because, in her words, it "could be abused by members [of Congress] to beat up the State Department for not paying attention to warnings, so why would we want to feed that either? Concerned .. > > [The Benghazi Memo Drafts, as They Evolved - The Atlantic](http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2013/05/benghazi-memo-drafts/65089/) ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bengazi-post-closed-by-marley23-in-elections/658141/104 "2013-05-15T04:53:24Z")
A bi-partisan committee is what is needed. One with full sopoena powers. The results may not satisfy any side but at least the truth will get out. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bengazi-post-closed-by-marley23-in-elections/658141/105 "2013-05-15T05:53:13Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > A bi-partisan committee is what is needed. One with full sopoena powers. The results may not satisfy any side but at least the truth will get out. I don’t have much faith in bipartisan committees. They tend to arrive at watered down conclusions that are more the result of mediation between the two competing sides than reaching difficult conclusions. I tend to prefer independent processes – like media investigations – where people aren’t afraid to throw some mud. And I also have little faith in politicians. I think the Pickering report – which I believe was sort of an independent analysis – was pretty good on the security issues. It made some pretty strict condemnations and arrived at some pretty strong conclusions, which have since been adopted by the Obama admin. (If I remember correctly, 4 people at State lost their jobs over this.) I think it’s probably too much to hope for an independent or bipartisan committee to investigate whether someone in the Obama admin lied. If we started making bipartisan committees to investigate every time a politician was accused of lying, bipartisan committees would pretty quickly become America’s biggest industry. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bengazi-post-closed-by-marley23-in-elections/658141/106 "2013-05-15T06:23:10Z")
> [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](#): > > And if it turns out that the Obama admin did lie – What on earth is the potential lie that the Obama Administration lied? ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bengazi-post-closed-by-marley23-in-elections/658141/107 "2013-05-15T06:39:58Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > What on earth is the potential lie that the Obama Administration lied? Read some of the prior posts in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bengazi-post-closed-by-marley23-in-elections/658141/108 "2013-05-15T07:32:36Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Actually she’s from Chicago. > > Are power hungry liberal elitists from Chicago as bad as those from New York. It depends on which style of pizza they order. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bengazi-post-closed-by-marley23-in-elections/658141/109 "2013-05-15T07:55:23Z")
> [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](#): > > Read some of the prior posts in this thread. I did; I’m not seeing what it is they supposedly covered-up. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bengazi-post-closed-by-marley23-in-elections/658141/110 "2013-05-15T08:31:27Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I did; I’m not seeing what it is they supposedly covered-up. Am I being trolled? Because [in this post, you denied that the Obama admin lied, and suggested they were simply mistaken](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16282442&postcount=11): > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Or they were simply mistaken. That is not synonymous with malfeasance. Did you not know what you were talking about when you posted that? You were just blindly suggesting that the Obama admin did nothing wrong without even knowing what they were accused of? Or have completely forgotten those accusations over the past 2 days, and didn’t bother to read down to the 11th post in the thread? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bengazi-post-closed-by-marley23-in-elections/658141/111 "2013-05-15T08:46:50Z")
> [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](#): > > Am I being trolled? Because [in this post, you denied that the Obama admin lied, and suggested they were simply mistaken](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16282442&postcount=11): > > Did you not know what you were talking about when you posted that? You were just blindly suggesting that the Obama admin did nothing wrong without even knowing what they were accused of? > > Or have completely forgotten those accusations over the past 2 days, and didn’t bother to read down to the 11th post in the thread? What the hork are you talking about? I see no contradictions in what I said. So what are they accused of lying about? Certainly not the nature of the attack; it is clear there were differing points of view from State, CIA and others; it is not a high crime or misdemeanor to change the talking points as information develops. Certainly not the defense of the consulate; it is clear the attackers would have overwhelmed it, even if there had been reasonably more security. There is no way to defend all diplomatic posts against any and all conceivable attacks, especially with Republicans slashing security funding. And certainly not the military response to the attack, which all experts agree would be too late to change the outcome. You are just wrong on all counts. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bengazi-post-closed-by-marley23-in-elections/658141/112 "2013-05-15T09:02:30Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > What the hork are you talking about? I see no contradictions in what I said. > > So what are they accused of lying about? Certainly not the nature of the attack; it is clear there were differing points of view from State, CIA and others; it is not a high crime or misdemeanor to change the talking points as information develops. > > Certainly not the defense of the consulate; it is clear the attackers would have overwhelmed it, even if there had been reasonably more security. There is no way to defend all diplomatic posts against any and all conceivable attacks, especially with Republicans slashing security funding. > > And certainly not the military response to the attack, which all experts agree would be too late to change the outcome. > > You are just wrong on all counts. You don’t see any contradiction in saying that you don’t know what they’re accused of lying about, and arguing that they didn’t lie? You’re either not being serious, or your argument should not be taken seriously. Have fun. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bengazi-post-closed-by-marley23-in-elections/658141/113 "2013-05-15T09:04:19Z")
> [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](#): > > You don’t see any contradiction in saying that you don’t know what they’re accused of lying about, and arguing that they didn’t lie?. I said what they are accused of does not constitute a lie. No contradiction. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bengazi-post-closed-by-marley23-in-elections/658141/114 "2013-05-15T15:31:17Z")
> [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](#): > > I do think the evidence that tends to point against the conclusion that the ambassador was responsible for the size of the security detail in Benghazi. For one, I seriously doubt that ambassadors get to make decisions on security details. Ambassadors are diplomats with no training or expertise in security matters, so they would presumably not be entrusted with making those life or death decisions. And if the ambassador was able to decide the size of his own security contingent, the ambassador would not have been forced to ask repeatedly for additional security, he could have just ordered it for himself. [As previously cited;](http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/2012/10/22/in-benghazi-stevens-fatally-misjudged-risk-reward/) > [@](#): > > Stevens was clearly a courageous man who did not see his mission as sitting safely in the capital city meeting high-level government officials in gilded reception rooms. According to my ex-diplomat friend, Stevens would have had the authority to set his own schedule and travel plans, without Washington’s approval. His familiarity with Benghazi apparently gave him a sense of security about the situation there, even on the anniversary of Sept. 11. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bengazi-post-closed-by-marley23-in-elections/658141/115 "2013-05-15T16:06:00Z")
OK, that opens a plausible window for “why?”. Benghazi was known to be in the center of an area much aligned with “insurgents” (for lack of a better word). And he depended upon his personal popularity to give him an opportunity to build bridges and connections. And that answers one of my questions. If he wasn’t required to report his movements in advance, no one would have said that he couldn’t do it, too risky. Yeah, that works. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bengazi-post-closed-by-marley23-in-elections/658141/116 "2013-05-15T17:48:07Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Victoria Nuland didn’t insert ‘Demonstrations’ and cross-out the word ‘attack’ into the drafts being circulated. But someone did. Your [Atlantic Wire link](http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2013/05/benghazi-memo-drafts/65089/) shows that this happened from the Sept 14 12:23pm draft to the 4:42pm draft. That link offers this general statement, implying that the State Dept. was responsible for the changes: > [@](#): > > the CIA developed an initial outline describing what it knew about the situation, which is the initial draft you see below. That outline was then reviewed by the State Department, and went through a number of iterations before being distributed to members of Congress and used by the Susan Rice The link also says that beneath each draft version will appear comments that describe why a change was made and who requested it - but those comments don’t appear for me. Is it known who changed “attacks” to “demonstrations” ? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bengazi-post-closed-by-marley23-in-elections/658141/117 "2013-05-15T17:54:13Z")
So this scandal is about… memos or something? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bengazi-post-closed-by-marley23-in-elections/658141/118 "2013-05-15T19:30:56Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So this scandal is about… memos or something? Not even that. I notice that Age Quod Agis hasn’t even commented on the fact that the email that blew the GOP up was a lie that the GOP itself told. Don’t let \*facts \*upset your argument. Just pretend those facts don’t exist and start complaining about something else! ---
**Author:** ![mbetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/53a042/32.png) [@mbetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbetter)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bengazi-post-closed-by-marley23-in-elections/658141/119 "2013-05-15T19:55:30Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > She’s a power hungry liberal elitist from New York. That’s a particularly disgusting combination, and one that should never hold national office. I disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bengazi-post-closed-by-marley23-in-elections/658141/120 "2013-05-15T20:23:35Z")
I’d be a little surprised if one could get elected president without being power-hungry. Whether or not “liberal”, “elitist” and being from New York are bad depends on one’s political views (and how the first two terms are defined), though any of these elements seem self-evidently evil to at least some Americans. What’s the ideal exact opposite of this? A meek humble fundamentalist high-school dropout from Wyoming? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bengazi-post-closed-by-marley23-in-elections/658141.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bengazi-post-closed-by-marley23-in-elections/658141.md?page=7)