# Re bodybuilders after 60. Will juicing really be that bad for you after 60? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 12, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bodybuilders-after-60-will-juicing-really-be-that-bad-for-you-after-60/631291 "2012-08-12T19:17:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bodybuilders-after-60-will-juicing-really-be-that-bad-for-you-after-60/631291/21 "2012-08-13T22:26:24Z")
> [@Chicagojeff](#): > > Yeah I saw where Mike Matarazzo.. (never a Mr Olympia but a huge guy with big arms who did a lot of covers) can’t lift anymore. He’s had three heart attacks. Flex Wheeler had to have a kidney? replaced. Yeah.. and sheesh.. has anyone seen Lex Luger.. he’s at least out of the wheelchair.. I’ve heard Matarazzo can barely do any physical activity anymore due to angina pain. I heard Dillett got sick but then got better. A video of him in 2010 shows him having the same size as anyone else. I wonder how many of the 90s bodybuilders lost all (or most) their muscle by now and don’t stand out in a crowd anymore. People’s bodies are different and I’m assuming some lost most if it once the drugs and massive training regimins stopped. I saw a video of Dorian Yates, supposedly he had some health problems too and lost a lot of his muscle. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bodybuilders-after-60-will-juicing-really-be-that-bad-for-you-after-60/631291/22 "2012-08-13T22:30:09Z")
> [@Michael63129](#): > > (and many bodybuilders intake more protein than they can actually use and can harm their kidneys by doing so). Those are two myths. Our bodies efficiently use all macro-nutrients we ingest and there’s no reason to believe high protein intake will harm the kidneys of those that don’t already have kidney issues. > **[Dietary protein intake and renal function - Nutrition & Metabolism](https://nutritionandmetabolism.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1743-7075-2-25)** > > Recent trends in weight loss diets have led to a substantial increase in protein intake by individuals. As a result, the safety of habitually consuming dietary protein in excess of recommended intakes has been questioned. In particular, there is... ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bodybuilders-after-60-will-juicing-really-be-that-bad-for-you-after-60/631291/23 "2012-08-13T22:34:50Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > I wonder how many of the 90s bodybuilders lost all (or most) their muscle by now and don’t stand out in a crowd anymore. Did you see what Victor Martinez looked like right after he got out of jail? > **[Redirect Notice](https://www.google.com/imgres?q=victor+martinez+jail&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=1920&bih=996&tbm=isch&tbnid=Ngtsxq4hmpRveM:&imgrefurl=http:%2F%2Fanabolicscene.blogspot.com%2F2012%2F04%2Fvictor-martinez-released-from-jail.html&docid=74dkd_QGNQBL9M&imgurl=http:%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-RhCsxKjSJ5g%2FT5ziAdVh2jI%2FAAAAAAAAAEw%2Fy0DZKaGdy_E%2Fs1600%2Fvic1-wm.jpg&w=640&h=591&ei=ZIApUPDsLeLo0QGhjoHgDA&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=684&vpy=149&dur=43&hovh=216&hovw=234&tx=136&ty=86&sig=106948879437756868913&page=1&tbnh=156&tbnw=177&start=0&ndsp=49&ved=1t:429,r:3,s:0,i:84)** He was jacked before he went in. > **[Redirect Notice](https://www.google.com/imgres?q=victor+martinez&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=1920&bih=996&tbm=isch&tbnid=bAg7EJ8w0oMbqM:&imgrefurl=http:%2F%2Fmuscletanktops.blogspot.com%2F2012%2F04%2Fvictor-martinez-in-tank-tops.html&docid=HZjLAxRqQlGBoM&imgurl=http:%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-ybEMyKJMNnU%2FT3lt9qB5AfI%2FAAAAAAAADEw%2F1YJk93Mw7gc%2Fs1600%2Fvictor_martinez3.jpg&w=668&h=768&ei=64ApUJT_DaS_0QGZ1oHIBQ&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=118&sig=106948879437756868913&page=1&tbnh=137&tbnw=119&start=0&ndsp=61&ved=1t:429,r:15,s:0,i:190&tx=74&ty=86)** ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bodybuilders-after-60-will-juicing-really-be-that-bad-for-you-after-60/631291/24 "2012-08-14T00:31:44Z")
Look at Paul Dillett today. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/TIyn67KdPUA/hqdefault.jpg "Paul Dillett - President Of The WBFF") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIyn67KdPUA) ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bodybuilders-after-60-will-juicing-really-be-that-bad-for-you-after-60/631291/25 "2012-08-14T00:36:14Z")
^ Wow, talk about shrinkage! He was famous for his cannonball sized shoulders. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bodybuilders-after-60-will-juicing-really-be-that-bad-for-you-after-60/631291/26 "2012-08-14T00:40:07Z")
I’m over 60, and I’m on testosterone replacement therapy. But I could work out 24/7, and still not look like those guys . . . not that I’d ever want to. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bodybuilders-after-60-will-juicing-really-be-that-bad-for-you-after-60/631291/27 "2012-08-14T00:48:31Z")
^ A normal young male produces about 6mg of testosterone per day. The typical beginners steroids cycle is injecting 500mg of test per week and usually with at least one oral steroid. More advanced users take other injectables along with orals. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bodybuilders-after-60-will-juicing-really-be-that-bad-for-you-after-60/631291/28 "2012-08-14T21:10:26Z")
I knew a weight lifter that used anabolic steroids when I was young (around 1984). The guy was _huge_. I recently friended him on FB, so he’s still alive. But nowhere near as big as he used to be, so I am assuming he’s no longer on the juice. But the last couple of months he has been rushed to the hospital in critical condition. He doesn’t mention the reason. I am guessing his steroid use has caused some damage… ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bodybuilders-after-60-will-juicing-really-be-that-bad-for-you-after-60/631291/29 "2012-08-15T00:56:56Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > I knew a weight lifter that used anabolic steroids when I was young (around 1984). The guy was _huge_. > > I recently friended him on FB, so he’s still alive. But nowhere near as big as he used to be, so I am assuming he’s no longer on the juice. But the last couple of months he has been rushed to the hospital in critical condition. He doesn’t mention the reason. I am guessing his steroid use has caused some damage… Ok, this brings up something I feel needs to be addressed. Steroid abuse, by and large, is done by people who aren’t fully educated and informed on all the proper protocols and safety measures that need to be abided by in order to avoid many of the health perils that can result otherwise. By this I mean proper cycling, dosage, after-cycle therapy and regular bloodwork. Many men simply never go off their cycles; or wait until something bad happens. Most steroid cycles are meant for 8-12 week periods; the liver, kidneys, testes and other organs aren’t meant to withstand such drugs for undetermined amounts of time. This aspect I think is responsible for _a lot_ of the “negative press” on steroid use/abuse. Those people who “abuse” steroids responsibly (yes, I know that is an oxymoronic statement) usually suffer no ill side effects. But many, many men simply use as much illicit substance as they can, thinking “more is better”; often for as long as their bodies will allow it. Ignorance is what causes most of steroids bad effects, in the general public, IMHO. All that being said, I DO think that anabolic steroid use/abuse is not something that a person should ever enter into without weighing the risks and benefits in an exhaustive manner prior to engaging in it. For me, with all the other medical issues I live with, I felt that such a decision (to use steroids) would just add more complications to what is already a complex medical situation. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bodybuilders-after-60-will-juicing-really-be-that-bad-for-you-after-60/631291/30 "2012-08-15T01:28:14Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Steroid abuse, by and large, is done by people who aren’t fully educated and informed on all the proper protocols and safety measures that need to be abided by in order to avoid many of the health perils that can result otherwise. Where does one get this education? Can you point out what studies have been done or what text books give this information? > [@](#): > > Most steroid cycles are meant for 8-12 week periods Can you cite evidence for that? > [@](#): > > Those people who “abuse” steroids responsibly (yes, I know that is an oxymoronic statement) usually suffer no ill side effects. Cite for that also please, thanks. Also, how much is “usually”? If your evidence is anecdotal, I have anecdotal evidence for bodybuilders that followed the traditional guidelines preached on steroids forums and had to have lumps removed from under their nipples (not gynecomastia) and had decreased testosterone levels over a year after cycling (and he used HCG during the cycle and administered PCT), and I know of two steroids users that had cardiomegaly. (The drugs and doses for PCT aren’t harmless either.) EVERYONE thinks they know how to do them safely, but they’re full of horseshit). There’s no known “proper” protocols for injecting that much testosterone into one’s system and taking steroids in addition. Everything is word of mouth passed along by underground handbooks by muscle magazine editors with no medical degrees and forum members that are “experts.” Someone made a sarcastic comment upthread that every time a bodybuilder dies it’s always blamed on steroids (which is horseshit. Likewise, every time a steroids user suffers negative effects, it wasn’t the steroids fault or the user just didn’t follow the proper protocols. I’d still like to know where I can get my hands on these proper protocols. > [@](#): > > Ignorance is what causes most of steroids bad effects, in the general public, IMHO. We’re ALL ignorant of what constitutes a safe cycle. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bodybuilders-after-60-will-juicing-really-be-that-bad-for-you-after-60/631291/31 "2012-08-15T01:40:06Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Where does one get this education? Can you point out what studies have been done or what text books give this information? > Can you cite evidence for that? > Cite for that also please, thanks. Also, how much is “usually”? If your evidence is anecdotal, I have anecdotal evidence for bodybuilders that followed the traditional guidelines preached on steroids forums and had to have lumps removed from under their nipples (not gynecomastia) and had decreased testosterone levels over a year after cycling (and he used HCG during the cycle and administered PCT), and I know of two steroids users that had cardiomegaly. (The drugs and doses for PCT aren’t harmless either.) EVERYONE thinks they know how to do them safely, but they’re full of horseshit). There’s no known “proper” protocols for injecting that much testosterone into one’s system and taking steroids in addition. Everything is word of mouth passed along by underground handbooks by muscle magazine editors with no medical degrees and forum members that are “experts.” > > Someone made a sarcastic comment upthread that every time a bodybuilder dies it’s always blamed on steroids (which is horseshit. Likewise, every time a steroids user suffers negative effects, it wasn’t the steroids fault or the user just didn’t follow the proper protocols. I’d still like to know where I can get my hands on these proper protocols. > We’re ALL ignorant of what constitutes a safe cycle. Well, ok, I won’t even argue with any of this. My main point was really that most men who abuse steroids do so without arming themselves with even the smallest bit of knowledge or understanding of what they are doing to themselves. Many times these steroids are abused in a manner that exacerbates their risks tremendously. There ARE publications out there that feature columns or other regular posts by actual doctors who discuss these issues. So there IS real info out there. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bodybuilders-after-60-will-juicing-really-be-that-bad-for-you-after-60/631291/32 "2012-08-15T01:47:06Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Well, ok, I won’t even argue with any of this. My main point was really that most men who abuse steroids do so without arming themselves with even the smallest bit of knowledge or understanding of what they are doing to themselves. I think the goalpost of your point has been moved a wee bit. > [@](#): > > There ARE publications out there that feature columns or other regular posts by actual doctors who discuss these issues. So there IS real info out there. You’re being vague. Of course doctors have discussed the issues and there is real info out there. That’s not what I asked for. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bodybuilders-after-60-will-juicing-really-be-that-bad-for-you-after-60/631291/33 "2012-08-15T01:59:54Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > I think the goalpost of your point has been moved a wee bit. Well what I meant to say was clarified in my second post on this subject. Like I said, I am not arguing about the basic dangers of abusing steroids; simply that most men don’t do what they can/should to mitigate and minimize those dangers. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bodybuilders-after-60-will-juicing-really-be-that-bad-for-you-after-60/631291/34 "2012-08-15T02:05:47Z")
We don’t know what entails “responsible” use, so your statement is inaccurate. I won’t harp on the matter, but you made specific claims that I questioned and asked for cites for. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bodybuilders-after-60-will-juicing-really-be-that-bad-for-you-after-60/631291/35 "2012-08-15T02:36:41Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > We don’t know what entails “responsible” use, so your statement is inaccurate. I won’t harp on the matter, but you made specific claims that I questioned and asked for cites for. Well when I have more time I look around for cites. I do have [this](http://psy2.ucsd.edu/~mgorman/Yates.pdf) however. Granted, it is a small study and the result should be taken with a grain of salt _but_ it did look at the various psychological effects of increasing dosages of supra-physiological testosterone; up to 500ng/dl. The results showed no difference between these doses and placebo on irritability, aggression, depression, mania, psychosis, or sexual function on the test subjects. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bodybuilders-after-60-will-juicing-really-be-that-bad-for-you-after-60/631291/36 "2012-08-15T02:43:19Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > The results showed no difference between these doses and placebo on irritability, aggression, depression, mania, psychosis, or sexual function on the test subjects. In other words, that study isn’t relevant to any claims you made ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bodybuilders-after-60-will-juicing-really-be-that-bad-for-you-after-60/631291/37 "2012-08-15T02:46:43Z")
Here’s another small study: > **[Left ventricular early myocardial dysfunction after chronic misuse of...](https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/41/3/149)** > > Background: Anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS) are sometimes used by power athletes to improve performance by increasing muscle mass and strength. Recent bioptical data have shown that in athletes under the pharmacological effects of AAS, a focal... ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bodybuilders-after-60-will-juicing-really-be-that-bad-for-you-after-60/631291/38 "2012-08-15T02:55:32Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Here’s another small study: > > [http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/41/3/149](http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/41/3/149) Which AAS were being studied? Were other drugs along with these AAS used by any of these athletes? How was that controlled for? Where are the specifics here?😕 ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bodybuilders-after-60-will-juicing-really-be-that-bad-for-you-after-60/631291/39 "2012-08-15T02:57:30Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > In other words, that study isn’t relevant to any claims you made Not specifically but generally in the sense that a lot of the bad press regarding steroids is anecdotal and based on incorrect assumptions and scare tactics. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bodybuilders-after-60-will-juicing-really-be-that-bad-for-you-after-60/631291/40 "2012-08-15T03:16:20Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > We don’t know what entails “responsible” use, so your statement is inaccurate. I won’t harp on the matter, but you made specific claims that I questioned and asked for cites for. It has been years since I read anything on the subject but stuff like Keeping cycles short (2-8 weeks) to allow the body to recover from the damage done by AAS. Plus if you build muscle too fast it can damage tendons or fascias so better to build muscle in 2-8 week bursts. Avoiding AAS that can cause psych effects if you are prone to them (anadrol, etc) and sticking to others that have fewer psych effects Proper post-cycle methods of restarting natural test production Medications to prevent conversion of testosterone to estrogen and binding of estrogen to the breast tissue Testing your liver enzymes, avoiding oral AAS if you have high liver enzyme readings. etc. I’m sure there are a lot of other advances to do these things more safely. As with all illicit drug use, a lot of the advice comes from users who have gained the knowledge from personal experience, or from people who have backgrounds in medicine or biology who dabble in these subjects. Seeing how the government has an incentive to make the side effects of illegal drugs sound as unavoidable and unbearable as possible (and no incentive to make side effects seem avoidable and bearable), there really isn’t going to be a lot of official advice on this subject. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bodybuilders-after-60-will-juicing-really-be-that-bad-for-you-after-60/631291.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-bodybuilders-after-60-will-juicing-really-be-that-bad-for-you-after-60/631291.md?page=3)