# Re: Confederate reenactors- Are there any other cultures with members who celebrate major defeats? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 13, 2010, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-confederate-reenactors-are-there-any-other-cultures-with-members-who-celebrate-major-defeats/564026 "2010-12-13T20:19:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-confederate-reenactors-are-there-any-other-cultures-with-members-who-celebrate-major-defeats/564026/21 "2010-12-14T14:48:46Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > No, it doesn’t; the Bar Kokhba Rebellion failed. They didn’t kill us, we just lost. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-confederate-reenactors-are-there-any-other-cultures-with-members-who-celebrate-major-defeats/564026/22 "2010-12-14T15:06:56Z")
> [@Shade](#): > > Good Friday? I second this and suspect the basis for the whole idea is tied to the theme of whatever Easter says about the human condition. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-confederate-reenactors-are-there-any-other-cultures-with-members-who-celebrate-major-defeats/564026/23 "2010-12-14T15:27:14Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > They didn’t kill us, we just lost. 🙂 I’m pretty sure a military defeat involves some people on the losing side dying, especially one with the Romans in the picture! I was taught that 600,000 Jews died in the rebellion. Wikipedia has 580,000 which isn’t too far off that. ---
**Author:** ![minlokwat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/minlokwat/32/2844_2.png) [@minlokwat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minlokwat)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-confederate-reenactors-are-there-any-other-cultures-with-members-who-celebrate-major-defeats/564026/24 "2010-12-14T15:53:41Z")
America’s most famous duel, the one in which Aaron Burr squared off against Alexander Hamilton was reenacted some years back on or at least close to the actual location. They went through the whole production of dressing in the garb of the day, schlepping to the site via rowboat and remarkably enough, getting actual descendants of the two men to perform the reenactment. I remember watching an interview with Hamilton’s descendant (he’s the one who came out the worse for wear getting shot and then winding up slightly dead) wherein the guy said he wasn’t going to make a theatrical production of taking the bullet but would perhaps go down on one knee and bow his head. I remember thinking: 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-confederate-reenactors-are-there-any-other-cultures-with-members-who-celebrate-major-defeats/564026/25 "2010-12-14T15:56:03Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > I’m pretty sure a military defeat involves some people on the losing side dying, especially one with the Romans in the picture! I was taught that 600,000 Jews died in the rebellion. Wikipedia has 580,000 which isn’t too far off that. Sure, but we tried to take on the Roman empire at the height of its power, won independence for almost two years, and it took roughly one half of the entire mighty Roman army to beat us. We lost, but we didn’t stand a chance to begin with, and you can’t say we didn’t acquit ourselves well. It’s also important in that it marked the last time the a Jewish army - or even a Jewish battalion - took the field until the 20th Century. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-confederate-reenactors-are-there-any-other-cultures-with-members-who-celebrate-major-defeats/564026/26 "2010-12-14T16:00:12Z")
What about the Alamo? Maybe people don’t \*celebrate \*it, but the losing side \*glorifies \*it plenty. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-confederate-reenactors-are-there-any-other-cultures-with-members-who-celebrate-major-defeats/564026/27 "2010-12-14T16:20:04Z")
> [@bup](#): > > What about the Alamo? > > Maybe people don’t \*celebrate \*it, but the losing side \*glorifies \*it plenty. Well, see, that can count as a tactical defeat leading to a strategic victory. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-confederate-reenactors-are-there-any-other-cultures-with-members-who-celebrate-major-defeats/564026/28 "2010-12-14T17:27:28Z")
> [@bup](#): > > What about the Alamo? > > Maybe people don’t \*celebrate \*it, but the losing side \*glorifies \*it plenty. There have been Texas Revolution reenactors for some time. Most of them have been playing “Texians”–the rebels. But “Soldados”–Mexican soldiers–have been showing up lately. There were Tejanos on the rebel side–I’m not sure if any have joined the Texians. Both groups show up for commemorations of the battles of the Texas Revolution. There are camps for the reenactors & guns are fired to “reenact” the battles. Hard to be historically accurate with such small numbers & details such as the only remnant of the Alamo being the chapel & part of the long barracks. Here are “[both sides](http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/spdest/findadest/parks/san_jacinto_battleground/hist.phtml)” at the San Jacinto Battleground. (That was the last battle in the revolution–which Santa Anna lost.) Some reenactors are history buffs, not so much wishing to _really_ relive the past. And there are plenty of Union reenactment groups. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-confederate-reenactors-are-there-any-other-cultures-with-members-who-celebrate-major-defeats/564026/29 "2010-12-14T17:33:31Z")
Was the Boer War such a Pyrrhic victory for the British that it became a symbol of pride for the Afrikkaners? ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-confederate-reenactors-are-there-any-other-cultures-with-members-who-celebrate-major-defeats/564026/30 "2010-12-14T23:43:17Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > There are some who feel that the Civil War was the last fight between the English Union and the gaelic Confederacy. They are sort of glossing over the huge wave of Irish immigrants who fought for the Union Army. A better analogy might be to paraphrase Terry Pratchett in _Good Omens_: It was an American version of the Irish & the Scots fighting their ages old archenemies the Irish & the Scots. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-confederate-reenactors-are-there-any-other-cultures-with-members-who-celebrate-major-defeats/564026/31 "2010-12-14T23:54:39Z")
I believe reenactments sometimes occur of battles from the Irish 1798 Rising, the [Battle of Vinegar Hill](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vinegar_Hill)for example is still remembered and IIRC there were reenactments in 1998 that included descendents of those who fought on the losing side. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-confederate-reenactors-are-there-any-other-cultures-with-members-who-celebrate-major-defeats/564026/32 "2010-12-15T03:34:42Z")
I think that it’s not the actual defeat that is being celebrated: remember, if somebody was defeated, somebody was the winner, and that may be what is being celebrated. Any rate, it’s also not the defeat being celebrated by the losers: it’s the battle. It can harken men back to the time when heroes did the right thing, even if they die doing it. As for people finding identity and communion, a good explanation has eluded me since I went to that football game, and saw the guy with his face painted blue. Best wishes, hh ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-confederate-reenactors-are-there-any-other-cultures-with-members-who-celebrate-major-defeats/564026/33 "2010-12-15T03:53:55Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I recall hearing during the Yugoslavian breakup that the Serbs had a number of celebrated defeats. There were some Serbs and Montenegrians that referred to Bosnian Muslims as Turks because in their mind even though it’s been more than 500 years since Kosovo, the Muslims were still just Ottoman invaders. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-confederate-reenactors-are-there-any-other-cultures-with-members-who-celebrate-major-defeats/564026/34 "2010-12-15T04:18:02Z")
The battle of Kosovo in the 14th century was a loss for the Serbs, but an important part of the nation’s founding mythology. It was a speech on the anniversary of the battle by Milosevic in Kosovo that launched the modern day violence. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-confederate-reenactors-are-there-any-other-cultures-with-members-who-celebrate-major-defeats/564026/35 "2010-12-15T04:32:53Z")
Many Europeans romanticize the Crusades, which Christendom ultimately lost. ---
**Author:** ![apollonia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2bfe46/32.png) [@apollonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/apollonia)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-confederate-reenactors-are-there-any-other-cultures-with-members-who-celebrate-major-defeats/564026/36 "2010-12-15T05:22:40Z")
In a related event, last year there was set to be a reenactment of the Battle of the Plains of Abraham in Quebec which was [cancelled](http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2009/02/17/mtl-plains-battle-cancelled-0217.html) after many, many people found it hugely insulting and upsetting. Reenactments of battles between the French and the English not spectacularly popular in a province where there is still quite a lot of uncomfortable sentiments about ethnicity and language floating around: news at eleven. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-confederate-reenactors-are-there-any-other-cultures-with-members-who-celebrate-major-defeats/564026/37 "2010-12-15T07:04:20Z")
I had a couple of friends in law school who were confederate reenactors. Both were exceedingly weird (not like I’m one to talk). How weird? Well, one was a full blooded Phillipino. He wasn’t a closet racist or slave owner wannabe. The other, an Irish-American, wasn’t either, he also did Dickens and Renaissance Fair dress up. He fancied himself as old timey. I personally consider confederate dress up only one stage above Nazi dress up. Start waving the Stars and Bars and I don’t see a difference at all. It was a completely repugnant cause and celebrating it today shows that you are even more of a shithead than the assholes who actually fought a war for slavery. At least they had an economic and cultural excuse. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-confederate-reenactors-are-there-any-other-cultures-with-members-who-celebrate-major-defeats/564026/38 "2010-12-15T08:02:48Z")
I’ve mentioned my experience with reenactors before but I’ll go again here. I think it would be very interesting to get a sense of the experience and the weaponry (though unless you’re firing live rounds and really eating worm ridden crackers it’s not going to be terribly close) but most of the official groups are absolute fanatics about sutlery and equipment and the like: about the only concession they make is you can have plastic lenses in your glasses BUT they have to be in a period replica frame which must be made of the materials that 1860s glasses frames would have been made from. While some really do enjoy doing it for the “playing cowboys and Indians but with adult toys and budgets”, there’s a disgusting amount of bigotry and surprising historical ignorance among them (specifically the “it wasn’t about slaves it was about state’s rights!” type). Many reenactment groups are now connected to the Sons of Confederate Veterans, which used to be an ancestor worship group on par with the DAR or the Mayflower societies but was taken over by the Death Eaters a few years ago and now all but claims that black people begged to be made slaves, committed mass suicide when masters threatened to free them, and the war was over state’s rights to grow cumquats or ever- just damned near lunatic revisionism. But the craziest thing about the reenactors is that they strive for accuracy on buttons and canteens and shoestrings (literally- shoestrings are regulated), but then they’ll let in guys who have 35% body fat. Most Civil War soldiers north and south were skinny from a combination of bad food and constant exercise, and if you see double chins and big bellies in pics of Confederates especially they were most likely either senators or generals (and even most generals were thin after a time in the field) and almost certainly not a foot soldier of more than 3 weeks active duty. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-confederate-reenactors-are-there-any-other-cultures-with-members-who-celebrate-major-defeats/564026/39 "2010-12-15T11:55:52Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Sure, but we tried to take on the Roman empire at the height of its power, won independence for almost two years, and it took roughly one half of the entire mighty Roman army to beat us. We lost, but we didn’t stand a chance to begin with, and you can’t say we didn’t acquit ourselves well. > > It’s also important in that it marked the last time the a Jewish army - or even a Jewish battalion - took the field until the 20th Century. Yes, we certainly did! I was just taking issue with **carnivorousplant** ’s characterisation of it as a “they tried to kill us, they didn’t, let’s eat” holiday. Purim and Pesach and the other ones that do fit that description have a very different tone, IMO. They are about celebrating deliverance, and Lag ba’Omer doesn’t feel that way to me. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-confederate-reenactors-are-there-any-other-cultures-with-members-who-celebrate-major-defeats/564026/40 "2010-12-15T12:39:13Z")
Every freaking September 11, the right wing praises George Bush for “keeping us safe”, as if the attacks proved that somehow. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-confederate-reenactors-are-there-any-other-cultures-with-members-who-celebrate-major-defeats/564026.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-confederate-reenactors-are-there-any-other-cultures-with-members-who-celebrate-major-defeats/564026.md?page=3)