# Re: Der Trihs in the GWB 9/11 thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 3, 2011, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-der-trihs-in-the-gwb-9-11-thread/591370 "2011-08-03T20:47:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Crown\_Prince\_of\_Irony](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ed655f/32.png) [@Crown\_Prince\_of\_Irony](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crown_Prince_of_Irony)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-der-trihs-in-the-gwb-9-11-thread/591370/1 "2011-08-03T20:47:13Z")
Since I wanted to stop hijacking [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=618134) re: Bush’s reaction on 9/11, as there’s still dialog ongoing that is germane to the OP. I don’t pit other Dopers as a rule, but I had to put this out there. In this thread, **Normal Phase** offered up a great post: > [@George W Bush Was Only Thinking Of The Children On The Morning Of 9/11.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-w-bush-was-only-thinking-of-the-children-on-the-morning-of-9-11/590696/191): > > > [@Hamster King](#): > > > > Not particularly. User\_hostile had the same reaction. For someone who happened to be paying attention to global terrorism at the time, the 9-11 attacks were not amazing mysteries, no matter how hard the “no one could have anticipated” excuse was spun by those who didn’t do their jobs properly. > > You have to have had your head buried in the sand or have bought the “no one could have anticipated” business hook line and sinker to even remotely consider that it shouldn’t have been the obvious conclusion that there was a major terrorist event underway at the moment that second plane hit. > > I was in my car heading somewhere when I heard about the first plane, and the second one was reported as I was pulling into the driveway. I went to the right conclusion instantly, and by the time I walked into the building so had EVERYONE that I spoke to there. > > In the larger context I don’t give a shit what Bush did on that day. But I do agree with virtually everything that Der Trihs says about him, **minus the “he must have been jumping for joy to see Muslims/New Yorkers dead” sort of pointless mind reading**. It is a massive failure of our media and our society that things like the Project for the New American Century are so unknown. This was a group who called openly for greater American military domination in the world, and one of their biggest bugbears was Saddam Hussein. In 1998 they sent a [letter to then-President Clinton](http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm), in which they argued that the threat of weapons of mass destruction from Saddam Hussein’s Iraq was so great that military intervention must be begun in the near term, with the goal of removing Hussein from power. Here is a representative paragraph: > > > [@](#): > > > > Given the magnitude of the threat, the current policy, which depends for its success upon the steadfastness of our coalition partners and upon the cooperation of Saddam Hussein, is dangerously inadequate. The only acceptable strategy is one that eliminates the possibility that Iraq will be able to use or threaten to use weapons of mass destruction. In the near term, this means a willingness to undertake military action as diplomacy is clearly failing. In the long term, it means removing Saddam Hussein and his regime from power. That now needs to become the aim of American foreign policy. > > You may recognize many of the signatories from Bush’s administration: Elliott Abrams, Richard L. Armitage, William J. Bennett, Jeffrey Bergner, John Bolton, Paula Dobriansky, Francis Fukuyama, Robert Kagan, Zalmay Khalilzad, William Kristol, Richard Perle, Peter W. Rodman, Donald Rumsfeld, William Schneider, Jr., Vin Weber, Paul Wolfowitz, R. James Woolsey, Robert B. Zoellick. Dick Cheney was a founding member of PNAC. > > The desire to take down Saddam Hussein’s regime, as well as the surface rationale (weapons of mass destruction) were already well in place among this group of people before George Bush ever gained the Presidency or 9/11 ever happened. > > That nobody seems to know this save the **lunatic fringe of the left wing** (bitter snark right there), or is able to **hand-wave it away as some crazy conspiracy theory** if they do, is a crying shame. > > 9/11 provided no additional rationale to attack Iraq. Ties to al Quada were tenuous at best, where they weren’t fabricated. Even the supposed reason why these people wanted Saddam Hussein taken down so very badly (WMD) had ultimately to be fabricated. And as a result of that fabrication, those lies to fit a pre-existing desire for greater American military hegemony in the world, hundreds of thousands of people died. > > And that’s not supposed to be evil? Not supposed to be deserving of the greatest level of condemnation anyone can muster? Fuck that noise. [bolding mine] I agree with absolutely everything **Normal Phase** said. I’m no apologist, and I’ll say it again, very clearly - the entire Bush foreign policy team ( **maybe** save Powell) deserves to be brought up on charges at The Hague. That’s not my issue with **Der Trihs**. But **Normal Phase** made a point to stop short of endorsing **Der Trihs** ’ perennial dead horse, that Bush is some kind of murderous madman, dancing on the graves of American citizens and Iraqi children alike. My whole point is that one must truly and honestly comprehend and represent the nature of their opponents to hope for any kind of constructive discourse. We don’t need to make out Bush et al as any worse than they actually were to convey the depth of corruption and hubris that they embodied. But as bad as they were, I can pretty much guarantee that these guys didn’t sit in war rooms with their fingers tented, smiling over Iraqi and Afghani body counts every day - and they damn sure didn’t jump for joy on 9/11, with 3000 US citizens dead. I’m not saying the reality is much better - that they simply didn’t care how many were killed in pursuit of their agenda, and that they didn’t let jurisprudence, the civil rights of our own citizens, or preservation of basic human dignity get in their way; and that after the fact, they used 9/11 as an excuse to execute their plans. But by making out the bad guys as so much worse, rather than actually presenting facts to try to sway folks to his cause, **Der Trihs** only serves to alienate those who need to hear the real truth of the matter - especially when he invokes victims of 9/11 in such tasteless fashion. If _ **I** _ - a damn proud progressive liberal - have such a visceral negative reaction to such rhetoric, what would the average person on the street think? And as I said in the other thread, the average person is who needs to be swayed before any kind of positive change will happen in this country, on any front. Do anyone really think an honest dialog can occur when many people would see **Der Trihs** ’ entire argument as only a couple degrees from blood libel? (and not in the Sarah Palin “you hurt my feelings” sort of way, but in the old-school “Jews drink the blood of babies” context). I get that **Der Trihs** is simply trolling - and I doubt he’ll have anything truly constructive to say here, so I guess this will be a short thread. But I had to put this out there, to underscore the well thought-out post from **Normal Phase** (and maybe also to rebut the impression that I’m any kind of Bush apologist). Maybe one more thing to add - a polite request for **Der Trihs** : every time you post a diatribe against Bush (or against religion or anything else for that matter), maybe along with it, you could include an actual link to a factual article even vaguely supporting your position - maybe as an exercise in moderating your tone, or if nothing else, to give others the ammunition to reach their own conclusions. I’m not at all saying that such factual evidence doesn’t exist - I’ve read much of it myself, and as I said, I don’t need convincing. But there may be folks out there who do need to see for themselves, and maybe you should focus your outrage toward swaying folks to your cause instead of pushing them away with hate. Otherwise, it’s all just so much rhetorical masturbation. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-der-trihs-in-the-gwb-9-11-thread/591370/2 "2011-08-03T20:59:23Z")
> [@Crown\_Prince\_of\_Irony](#): > > Maybe one more thing to add - a polite request for **Der Trihs** : every time you post a diatribe against Bush (or against religion or anything else for that matter), maybe along with it, you could include an actual link to a factual article even vaguely supporting your position - maybe as an exercise in moderating your tone, or if nothing else, to give others the ammunition to reach their own conclusions. Early in my posting career in some thread where he was going off on chrsitians claiming all kinds of things I asked for a cite three times in the same thread and he ignored me each time. So I doubt he is going to change and actually try to back up why he thinks the way he does. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-der-trihs-in-the-gwb-9-11-thread/591370/3 "2011-08-03T21:18:12Z")
Excellent OP and quite respectful for the Pit. Not to come down hard on any one particular poster, but the general habit of making the opponent out to be worse than he is does absolutely nothing productive for political discourse. I appreciate you putting that out there. ---
**Author:** ![Crown\_Prince\_of\_Irony](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ed655f/32.png) [@Crown\_Prince\_of\_Irony](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crown_Prince_of_Irony)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-der-trihs-in-the-gwb-9-11-thread/591370/4 "2011-08-03T21:18:33Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Early in my posting career in some thread where he was going off on chrsitians claiming all kinds of things I asked for a cite three times in the same thread and he ignored me each time. So I doubt he is going to change and actually try to back up why he thinks the way he does. What’s ironic is that in the referenced thread, he did say this: > [@George W Bush Was Only Thinking Of The Children On The Morning Of 9/11.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-w-bush-was-only-thinking-of-the-children-on-the-morning-of-9-11/590696/63): > > Go look up the _Project for a New American Century_; Iraq was a target before Bush got into office. He was just the guy amoral and stupid enough to do what they wanted. And for that matter, Cheney’s Energy Task Force during California’s Enron-manufactured “energy crisis” spent much of its time studying maps of Iraq. They _always_ intended to attack Iraq, 9-11 was just the excuse they were looking for, the “new Pearl Harbor” they wanted. This is the most sensible, rational post I’ve ever seen from **Der Trihs**. And it might have laid decent groundwork for an argument that Bush would have invaded Iraq regardless. Had **DT** included a [link](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_a_New_American_Century), that is, instead of “go look it up”. And had he actually followed this up with further reasoned debate, instead of his next post, which was: > [@Der Trihs](#): > > > [@me](#): > > > > To say that a “major goal of Bush. . . was to kill random brown Muslims for the sake of killing them” shows that you have a severely broken capacity for empathy of any sort. > > No, it’s simply observing how Americans, especially right wing Americans act _all the time_. So - reasoned debate. . . not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Crown\_Prince\_of\_Irony](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ed655f/32.png) [@Crown\_Prince\_of\_Irony](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crown_Prince_of_Irony)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-der-trihs-in-the-gwb-9-11-thread/591370/5 "2011-08-03T21:21:36Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > Excellent OP and quite respectful for the Pit. Not to come down hard on any one particular poster, but the general habit of making the opponent out to be worse than he is does absolutely nothing productive for political discourse. I appreciate you putting that out there. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-der-trihs-in-the-gwb-9-11-thread/591370/6 "2011-08-03T22:17:44Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > Excellent OP and quite respectful for the Pit. Not to come down hard on any one particular poster, but the general habit of making the opponent out to be worse than he is does absolutely nothing productive for political discourse. I appreciate you putting that out there. More to the point, perhaps, it tends to be counterproductive wrt the presumed goal of hastening the political destruction of that opponent. ---
**Author:** ![cedman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/da6949/32.png) [@cedman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cedman)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-der-trihs-in-the-gwb-9-11-thread/591370/7 "2011-08-03T23:03:38Z")
He seems to be very smug that he hasn’t killed anyone. Strange, I know perhaps thousands of right wingers who’ve never killed anyone either! I’m looking for the exact mental problem that he has… ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-der-trihs-in-the-gwb-9-11-thread/591370/8 "2011-08-03T23:09:57Z")
What you are overlooking is the record of the Bush II administration. As events turned out the way to predict and comprehend its actions was to assume the most dishonourable and debased motives were solely in play. Then, turn it up to 11. Only then could an accurate picture appear. So **Der Trihs** ’s method has good and reliable form. At least in the present context. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-der-trihs-in-the-gwb-9-11-thread/591370/9 "2011-08-03T23:14:05Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > What you are overlooking is the record of the Bush II administration. As events turned out the way to predict and comprehend its actions was to assume the most dishonourable and debased motives were solely in play. Then, turn it up to 11. Yeah… too bad DT likes to go to 15. ---
**Author:** ![Crown\_Prince\_of\_Irony](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ed655f/32.png) [@Crown\_Prince\_of\_Irony](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crown_Prince_of_Irony)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-der-trihs-in-the-gwb-9-11-thread/591370/10 "2011-08-03T23:33:38Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yeah… too bad DT likes to go to 15. Exactly - even if I turn it up to 11, I still can’t imagine this: > [@Der Trihs](#): > > He was probably controlling the urge to cheer and dance. A bunch of dead New Yorkers (evil liberals, don’t you know), an excuse to run wild; the only thing that would have made him happier would be if it had been a nuke. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-der-trihs-in-the-gwb-9-11-thread/591370/11 "2011-08-04T00:12:33Z")
I find it helps if you keep in mind the image of a fully grown man who, quite early on, solidified a worldview based on the comic books he used as a substitute for social interaction, in which the “bad guys” are 100% evil merely for the sake of being evil. Who may well be physically repulsive, who likely has never been laid, and whose prospects for future sexual release (outside the company of his own fist and a partition full of Hentai) can charitably be termed grim. Who is very, _very_ bitter about that fact, and attempts to sublimate his unfulfilled adolescent longing with crudely drawn fantasies of an unjust world overrun by cackling sadists and black-hearted succubi who desire nothing more than to oppress his sad, delicate, and unattended manhood. I hear he’s a lot of fun in Cafe Society threads, though. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-der-trihs-in-the-gwb-9-11-thread/591370/12 "2011-08-04T00:33:43Z")
Mm. Posting on phone sucks. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-der-trihs-in-the-gwb-9-11-thread/591370/13 "2011-08-04T01:32:21Z")
**D\_T** is a prime practitioner of something that ordinarily drives me batty: incessant drive-bys that seem to mainly post the contents of his head as fact. Every once in a while I’ll think about why he doesn’t (drive me nuts, that is). It certainly isn’t his politics; while I definitely skew to the liberal end of the spectrum, and I won’t be sending the Bush family a Christmas card any time soon, calling up images of GWB dancing on the graves of dead Iraqis in all apparent seriousness seems, quite simply, deranged. But for some reason it doesn’t bother me as much as some other monomaniacal posters I could name. For one thing, it’s a relatively eloquent sort of madness; the grammar is arranged pretty well, and he clearly understands the concept of brevity. In, make what most folks would consider a fairly outrageous statement, in three lines or less, out, badda bing badda boom. And that’s maybe the heart of it. He doesn’t seem to really engage other posters all that much; he’ll make a brief, flat statement about how blackheartedly evil the Republicans, or the the US military, or Christians are, but that’s pretty much as far as it goes. He might respond to one or two posters who try to rebut his, er, unnuanced opinions, but like the panda in the bar, he pretty much shoots and leaves. So I guess his posts don’t interrupt the flow of a thread all that much, and so he’s managed to stick around for years, despite frequent expressions of opinion about as outlandish as those of **Commissar** , who managed to get himself booted in far less time. Well, there I am posting the contents of my head as fact. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![punch\_line\_loser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8e7dd6/32.png) [@punch\_line\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/punch_line_loser)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-der-trihs-in-the-gwb-9-11-thread/591370/14 "2011-08-04T01:42:44Z")
Well put. The unilateral condemnation this guy is always spouting just adds an extra layer of condescension to an already very obnoxious rhetorical style. And as far as debating techniques go, it’s basically the equivalent of trying to shove your dick through eye of a needle. ---
**Author:** ![Crown\_Prince\_of\_Irony](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ed655f/32.png) [@Crown\_Prince\_of\_Irony](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crown_Prince_of_Irony)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-der-trihs-in-the-gwb-9-11-thread/591370/15 "2011-08-04T02:43:17Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > **D\_T** is a prime practitioner of something that ordinarily drives me batty: incessant drive-bys that seem to mainly post the contents of his head as fact. Every once in a while I’ll think about why he doesn’t (drive me nuts, that is). It certainly isn’t his politics; while I definitely skew to the liberal end of the spectrum, and I won’t be sending the Bush family a Christmas card any time soon, calling up images of GWB dancing on the graves of dead Iraqis in all apparent seriousness seems, quite simply, deranged. > > But for some reason it doesn’t bother me as much as some other monomaniacal posters I could name. For one thing, it’s a relatively eloquent sort of madness; the grammar is arranged pretty well, and he clearly understands the concept of brevity. In, make what most folks would consider a fairly outrageous statement, in three lines or less, out, badda bing badda boom. > > And that’s maybe the heart of it. He doesn’t seem to really engage other posters all that much; he’ll make a brief, flat statement about how blackheartedly evil the Republicans, or the the US military, or Christians are, but that’s pretty much as far as it goes. He might respond to one or two posters who try to rebut his, er, unnuanced opinions, but like the panda in the bar, he pretty much shoots and leaves. So I guess his posts don’t interrupt the flow of a thread all that much, and so he’s managed to stick around for years, despite frequent expressions of opinion about as outlandish as those of **Commissar** , who managed to get himself booted in far less time. > > Well, there I am posting the contents of my head as fact. :dubious: So what you’re saying is. . . I shouldn’t feed the panda? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-der-trihs-in-the-gwb-9-11-thread/591370/16 "2011-08-04T03:12:08Z")
> [@cedman](#): > > He seems to be very smug that he hasn’t killed anyone. > > Strange, I know perhaps thousands of right wingers who’ve never killed anyone either! > > I’m looking for the exact mental problem that he has… I don’t know any. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-der-trihs-in-the-gwb-9-11-thread/591370/17 "2011-08-04T03:18:10Z")
I think the thing that bothers me so much is the dogmatism. When he’s posting in a political or religious thread, I find I don’t need to read the post to know what it says. Frankly, his black-and-white, us-and-them worldview is a mirror image of the religious fundamentalism and extreme economic conservatism he despises. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-der-trihs-in-the-gwb-9-11-thread/591370/18 "2011-08-04T03:21:45Z")
At least he’s consistent. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-der-trihs-in-the-gwb-9-11-thread/591370/19 "2011-08-04T03:28:48Z")
> [@cedman](#): > > He seems to be very smug that he hasn’t killed anyone. Well, I’ve never killed anyone either. I’ve got people for that. ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-der-trihs-in-the-gwb-9-11-thread/591370/20 "2011-08-04T03:36:32Z")
As someone who makes a cameo appearance in the very first post–THANK YOU ALL! A special thanks to **Crown Prince of Irony** , **Hamster King** , and a special thanks to **Der Trihs**. There are others [music starts cuing up] You all made this possible! Without you, this flame could never have happened. And I just want to say…we’re are against this war, Mr. Bush. Shame on you, Mr. Bush, shame on you. And, whenever you’ve got the Pope and the Dixie Chicks against you, your time is up. God Bless you all! Thanks again and good night! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-der-trihs-in-the-gwb-9-11-thread/591370.md?page=2)