# Re "Dune" is the book's Baron Harkonnen as grotesque as the movie version? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 18, 2012, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-dune-is-the-books-baron-harkonnen-as-grotesque-as-the-movie-version/641377 "2012-11-18T05:18:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-dune-is-the-books-baron-harkonnen-as-grotesque-as-the-movie-version/641377/21 "2012-11-19T20:48:48Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > The Baron for sure killed his young lovers, but the heart plug concept is strictly from the movie. In the book that’s not sure at all. He does kill one sex slave (not sure I’d use the word ‘lover’) but that one was booby-trapped to kill him, so I think the Baron gets a pass on that one. And we do know that at least one of the Baron’s bed-mates (in a younger sleeps-with-women phase) survives long enough to give birth to Jessica The book Baron is fat, homosexual, and nearly completely ruthless in his ambition; he also lives in a slave-owning society that at least somewhat condones having slave concubines, and takes advantage of that, and these concubines are young but we don’t know exactly how young. But he’s not covered in boils or anything. And, in fact, I don’t think he’s sadistic; the Baron would see torturing someone for no reason as a shocking waste of resources (obviously, if you have a valuable but sadistic mentat on staff, as the Baron did, keeping them happy is a good reason, but only as long as the costs don’t outweigh the benefits of keeping him happy). What’s kind of repugnant about the book itself, actually, is how Herbert basically presents being homosexual as enough to show the Baron’s eevvvilll nature (and implies that homosexuality == pedophilia == child raping) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-dune-is-the-books-baron-harkonnen-as-grotesque-as-the-movie-version/641377/22 "2012-11-19T21:01:12Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > …What’s kind of repugnant about the book itself, actually, is how Herbert basically presents being homosexual as enough to show the Baron’s eevvvilll nature (and implies that homosexuality == pedophilia == child raping) It was first published in 1965. That was not, alas, an uncommon point of view at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-dune-is-the-books-baron-harkonnen-as-grotesque-as-the-movie-version/641377/23 "2012-11-19T21:22:53Z")
> [@Darwins\_Finch](#): > > The first good description of the Baron in the book is as follows: Lynch appears to have read this line – “his figure took on dimension – grossly and immensely fat” – and ran with it. The suspensor belt to help him carry his weight turned into a levitation belt to allow him to float around the room. Most importantly, the description of “grossly” was taken away from the word it was modifying, “fat”, and applied to the Baron’s overall appearance and demeanor. So he became gross and immensely fat. I agree, the book Baron was probably fatter than the movie Baron - there was only so much that could be done at the time to fake that level of obesity. (This was way before Fat Bastard from the Austin Powers series.) But the boils and the blood showers and the heart plugs and all were all Lynch adaptations. > [@CalMeacham](#): > > And we could easily get that the Harkonnens were a family without giving them all the same outfits and ridiculous colored hair. They certainly overdid it, but I see the same outfits as a shorthand for their family tradition and style of protection suits, showing a distinct culture difference than the Atreides or other Great Houses. > [@](#): > > Have a look at the SciFi channel’s version. They did The Baron (and a lot of other things) much better. (Although the Lynch film has a lot to recommend it) The Lynch version has a lot of scenes that feed from the book, but feel compressed and don’t quite capture the epic scope and grandeur. The stillsuits are pretty awesome, except for the distinct lack of head cover. But Lynch twisted numerous things, from the portrait of the Baron, to the nature of the “weirding” training that Paul used and taught the Fremen. I thought the weirding modules were a neat idea, but that was before I ever read the book. The SciFi channel version in a lot of ways was truer to the book portrayal, but some style elements were odd - in particular, all the hats for the Princess and the Sardaukar outfits. They wrote the Princess a much larger role. But one thing that didn’t work for me was casting John Hurt and Duke Leto. The scene where the Duke finds out that the Baron supposedly had Paul murdered, he’s supposed to fly into a rage. The movie did that well. This portrayal goes for a quiet rage, that doesn’t convey well and doesn’t match the description of Duke Leto as a hotheaded and vibrant man. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-dune-is-the-books-baron-harkonnen-as-grotesque-as-the-movie-version/641377/24 "2012-11-19T21:35:35Z")
The Baron was pretty mustache-twirling evil, but I don’t recall any mention of cannibalism in the book. ---
**Author:** ![Beastly\_Rotter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@Beastly\_Rotter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beastly_Rotter)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-dune-is-the-books-baron-harkonnen-as-grotesque-as-the-movie-version/641377/25 "2012-11-19T22:14:14Z")
The book version didn’t drink hamster milkshakes, either. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-dune-is-the-books-baron-harkonnen-as-grotesque-as-the-movie-version/641377/26 "2012-11-19T22:24:24Z")
> [@Beastly\_Rotter](#): > > The book version didn’t drink hamster milkshakes, either. No, the magazine _Cinefantastique_ had a picture of the mouse (not hamster) in a plunger container, and said it was an invention of the film – _Squood_, for “Squeezable Food”. But IIRC, it was Jack Nance’s character who drank it, not the Baron. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-dune-is-the-books-baron-harkonnen-as-grotesque-as-the-movie-version/641377/27 "2012-11-20T04:23:29Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > …The SciFi channel version in a lot of ways was truer to the book portrayal, but some style elements were odd - in particular, all the hats for the Princess and the Sardaukar outfits… The Sardaukar hats on SciFi were just ridiculous. Perhaps they intended to incapacitate their foes with laughter?: [http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/bantha\_fodder/4974603/125947/125947\_original.jpg](http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/bantha_fodder/4974603/125947/125947_original.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-dune-is-the-books-baron-harkonnen-as-grotesque-as-the-movie-version/641377/28 "2012-11-20T05:54:47Z")
I got the feeling those outfits were loosely inspired by the Swiss Guard outfits used by the security at the Vatican. [![](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Swiss_Guard.jpg) ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Swiss_Guard.jpg) > **[CarbolicSmoke.com is for sale | HugeDomains](https://www.hugedomains.com/domain_profile.cfm?d=carbolicsmoke.com)** > > Shop a wide selection of domains at HugeDomains.com. Find the right domain name today. > **[Pontifical Swiss Guard](https://deadliestfiction.fandom.com/wiki/Pontifical_Swiss_Guard)** > > The Pontifical Swiss Guard (Latin: Pontificia Cohors Helvetica; Italian: Guardia Svizzera Pontificia; German: Päpstliche Schweizergarde; French: Garde suisse pontificale; Romansh: Guardia svizra papala) also Papal Swiss Guard or simply Swiss Guard,... As ridiculous as they look, there is precedent. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-dune-is-the-books-baron-harkonnen-as-grotesque-as-the-movie-version/641377/29 "2012-11-20T06:02:49Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > The Sardaukar hats on SciFi were just ridiculous. Perhaps they intended to incapacitate their foes with laughter?: [http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/bantha\_fodder/4974603/125947/125947\_original.jpg](http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/bantha_fodder/4974603/125947/125947_original.jpg) Are those actual combat uniforms, or court/dress uniforms? They don’t look any more ridiculous than the Swiss Guard, whom I suspect they were modled on. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-dune-is-the-books-baron-harkonnen-as-grotesque-as-the-movie-version/641377/30 "2012-11-20T06:08:09Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > The Sardaukar hats on SciFi were just ridiculous. Perhaps they intended to incapacitate their foes with laughter?: [http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/bantha\_fodder/4974603/125947/125947\_original.jpg](http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/bantha_fodder/4974603/125947/125947_original.jpg) I remember those. That’s like 5 berets sewn together kicking and screaming. For the most feared soldiers in the universe, they dress like a high school theater production ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-dune-is-the-books-baron-harkonnen-as-grotesque-as-the-movie-version/641377/31 "2012-11-20T06:22:14Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > The Sardaukar hats on SciFi were just ridiculous. Perhaps they intended to incapacitate their foes with laughter?: [http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/bantha\_fodder/4974603/125947/125947\_original.jpg](http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/bantha_fodder/4974603/125947/125947_original.jpg) The hats were a symbol of their bravery. You have to be brave man to wear a hat like that. Seriously though, there’s a long military tradition of wearing stupid hats, especially by elite forces. Perhaps it’s just a lack of constructive criticism when it’s time to pick their uniforms. Are you going to tell a green beret or a Sardaukar that his hat looks goofy? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-dune-is-the-books-baron-harkonnen-as-grotesque-as-the-movie-version/641377/32 "2012-11-20T06:41:04Z")
It seemed to me that the Sardaukar uniforms were based on those of the Swiss Guard. [![](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_66mr7N1rBSE/TC35h8RFinI/AAAAAAAAA44/IQse8peGPn0/s1600/swiss-guard-at-the-vatican.jpg) ](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_66mr7N1rBSE/TC35h8RFinI/AAAAAAAAA44/IQse8peGPn0/s1600/swiss-guard-at-the-vatican.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-dune-is-the-books-baron-harkonnen-as-grotesque-as-the-movie-version/641377/33 "2012-11-20T07:23:04Z")
Berets were part of the Sardaukar uniform in [Dune Encyclopaedia](http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Sardaukar?iact=hc&vpx=1055&vpy=156&dur=4011&hovh=272&hovw=185&tx=108&ty=140&sig=103280136846557627247&ei=dS-rUIOEL-jS0QWcooH4Ag&page=1&tbnh=154&tbnw=105&start=0&ndsp=17&ved=1t:429,r:7,s:0,i:109) - not _that_ big, though. Stupid hats were a thing in that series, though - vide the [Bene Gesserit](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/88/Mohiam%2BBeneGesserit-2000.jpg) And really, 200kg isn’t _that_ obese; [this guy](http://images.whereilive.com.au/images/uploads/2009/10/16/846b82d57ee0b19b7a10f7928be92132_resized.JPG) is 200kg. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-dune-is-the-books-baron-harkonnen-as-grotesque-as-the-movie-version/641377/34 "2012-11-20T08:51:45Z")
I think the book version was worse than the movie, but yeah as others have said there were no boils/weird showers/heart plugs. But he was obviously a gay pedophile who enjoyed his sex slaves and didn’t think much of having to kill one who tried to assassinate him. But beyond that, the book version was mentally cunning and morally depraved. He was almost admirable in how awful yet intelligent he was, whereas in the movie he was more of just comic book evil. The book version is worse from a mental perspective. Also, when he died, his suspensor belt did actually cause him to hover off of the floor a few inches, according to the book. But there was no flying around as a comic horror. I actually think the heart plugs fit well and think it’s one of the few things the movie added/changed that Herbert never included that was pretty awesome. Also, Herbert hated homosexuality, and even had a son who turned out to be gay who died from AIDS I believe, and they did not have a good relationship. So yes, it was Herbert’s intent to include homosexuality as an example of his evil depravity. Oddly, perhaps, as a gay man myself, I didn’t find it all that offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-dune-is-the-books-baron-harkonnen-as-grotesque-as-the-movie-version/641377/35 "2012-11-20T09:48:21Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > Also, Herbert hated homosexuality, and even had a son who turned out to be gay who died from AIDS I believe, and they did not have a good relationship. So yes, it was Herbert’s intent to include homosexuality as an example of his evil depravity. Oddly, perhaps, as a gay man myself, I didn’t find it all that offensive. That explains the bit in _God Emperor_ where Duncan Idaho is aghast that Leto allows the Fish Speakers to have same-sex partners and holds it up as proof that he’s lost his way. I always thought that segment was kind of out of left field. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-dune-is-the-books-baron-harkonnen-as-grotesque-as-the-movie-version/641377/36 "2012-11-20T12:55:59Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > The Sardaukar hats on SciFi were just ridiculous. Perhaps they intended to incapacitate their foes with laughter?: [http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/bantha\_fodder/4974603/125947/125947\_original.jpg](http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/bantha_fodder/4974603/125947/125947_original.jpg) It wasn’t just the Sardaukar hats – that movie had the most ludicrous and ridiculous collection of hats since **Atlantis, the Lost Continentr**. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-dune-is-the-books-baron-harkonnen-as-grotesque-as-the-movie-version/641377/37 "2012-11-20T13:38:28Z")
The ridiculous hats were, I thought, supposed to give things a kind of medieval/Renaissance flair. The images of headgear from those times that Google image searching brings up show people wearing some pretty silly looking hats. They don’t look notably different from the hats in the mini-series. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-dune-is-the-books-baron-harkonnen-as-grotesque-as-the-movie-version/641377/38 "2012-11-20T14:34:43Z")
You must be looking at a different Renaissance. A lot of the hats in the SciFi channel Dune looked structurally unsound. It’s a good thing none of those sandstorm winds kicked up while people had those hats on. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-dune-is-the-books-baron-harkonnen-as-grotesque-as-the-movie-version/641377/39 "2012-11-20T14:40:03Z")
Google image search “medieval hat” and “Renaissance hat” for yourself. The differences are a matter of degree rather than type. The hats in the show are more flamboyantly silly and impractical, but the medieval and Renaissance pieces\_once you get beyond that hood thing that serfs and dung farmers wore\_were obviously about fashion not about keeping your head warm. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-dune-is-the-books-baron-harkonnen-as-grotesque-as-the-movie-version/641377/40 "2012-11-20T14:46:21Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > You must be looking at a different Renaissance. A lot of the hats in the SciFi channel Dune looked structurally unsound. It’s a good thing none of those sandstorm winds kicked up while people had those hats on. Maybe looking structurally unsound was kind of the point. Look at me. I’m so powerful and wealthy that I can afford to wear this silly looking hat that looks like it’s going to fall apart at any moment. The mitre the Pope wears looks completely ridiculous as well but it’s a real hat. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-dune-is-the-books-baron-harkonnen-as-grotesque-as-the-movie-version/641377.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-dune-is-the-books-baron-harkonnen-as-grotesque-as-the-movie-version/641377.md?page=3)