# Re Feminism & "slut-shaming" isn't slut-shaming mainly done by females to other females? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 13, 2014, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-feminism-slut-shaming-isnt-slut-shaming-mainly-done-by-females-to-other-females/686043 "2014-04-13T21:53:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-feminism-slut-shaming-isnt-slut-shaming-mainly-done-by-females-to-other-females/686043/61 "2014-04-17T18:11:53Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > I generally think it’s a bit over the top when somebody swoops in to bring up some long-remembered prior post from another poster, but in this case it really needs to be pointed out. This is a cat who has started, among others obviously, the following threads – and these are just the ones showing up as the results of a single crack at the shitty SDMB search engine: > > Does female virginity really have any true sacredness or social importance anymore? > Are US sexual mores really “provincial” compared to Europe or is this US bashing? > Is female sluttiness in Canada, UK or AU conceptualized the same way it is in the US? > Young teenage girls advertise raunchy sexual messages - Has the neo-porn era begun? > Re female college students hooking to pay tuition expenses. BS or not? > Men are very wary of 20 and 30 something female virgins - Is it with good reason? > Why are mature, modern women more ambivalent about one night stand sex than men? > Ie “slut shaming” more a verb or a noun? > Ladies if you don’t want your private T&A pics to wind up online stop taking and sending them! > Why are sluts so hated and reviled by other women? > Is it unethical for a single young woman to trade sex for services? > Suggestion that women moderate drinking to avoid getting assaulted met with extreme outrage - Why? > Re Feminism & “slut-shaming” isn’t slut-shaming mainly done by females to other females? > > If he’s still requesting more information about the topic of “what do people think about some ladies who have some sex, or not,” it’s probably not because there’s something one of us is going to say that he hasn’t heard before. So basically you are trying to slut shame him for starting a lot of sexually-related topics. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-feminism-slut-shaming-isnt-slut-shaming-mainly-done-by-females-to-other-females/686043/62 "2014-04-17T19:19:16Z")
Too close to home? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-feminism-slut-shaming-isnt-slut-shaming-mainly-done-by-females-to-other-females/686043/63 "2014-04-17T19:22:13Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Too close to home? Not really, I don’t do a lot of slut-shaming. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-feminism-slut-shaming-isnt-slut-shaming-mainly-done-by-females-to-other-females/686043/64 "2014-04-17T19:23:35Z")
Never capture them that way! ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-feminism-slut-shaming-isnt-slut-shaming-mainly-done-by-females-to-other-females/686043/65 "2014-04-17T20:13:08Z")
> [@Sehmket](#): > > I think this is only true if you take any possibility of safe sex out of the equation. Condoms drastically reduce these risks, and significantly change the calculations here. I mean, don’t get me wrong, teenagers are plenty capable of being stupid, but what research DOES show is that in geographic areas where teens are taught safe sex techniques and given access to birth control, condoms, and counseling services, the rates of unintended pregnancy and STI transmission is significantly lower than in geographic areas where this is not the case. > > Also, regarding your study saying women who have more partners are more prone to substance abuse… that’s the sort of study I’d want to take a look at before accepting. A conclusion like that really leaps out at me as a situation where there could be significant correlative issues (socio-economic status, for starters), as well as significant cohort differences. Also, many, MANY sociological and anthropological studies have major issues, as reported in the popular media. > > In one of those “Great coincidences of the world” type of things, the below article showed up on my feed today. It discusses some of the ways in which living in a “slut-shaming” culture huts men, too. > > [http://playboysfw.kinja.com/bros-this-is-how-your-slut-shaming-is-backfiring-a-se-1563665480](http://playboysfw.kinja.com/bros-this-is-how-your-slut-shaming-is-backfiring-a-se-1563665480) Your faith in sex education is naive. There is very little evidence that it works and [plenty](http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/view/does_anything_work_in_sex_education)that it does not. The [study](http://www.moffittcaspi.com/sites/moffittcaspi.com/files/field/publication_uploads/Ramrakha_2013_MSPartners.pdf)that I mentioned adjusted for SES and cohort differences. The problem with it would more likely be a third variable problem. The research that states with comprehensive education having lower birth rates also have a huge third variable problem and are unreliable as a result. The article you linked to says a more affirming culture would make hook ups easier for jerks. I am not sure that is evidence that a more affirming culture would be a good thing for anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-feminism-slut-shaming-isnt-slut-shaming-mainly-done-by-females-to-other-females/686043/66 "2014-04-17T23:47:30Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > Except, really, it seems to be wrong (or cherry picking). Because from the news and articles I’ve read, it seems some of the most “primitive” hunter-gathering societies still around are ones who least concern themselves with that sort of thing. Probably because they understand that, even with a partner, the baby and baby’s mother would need all the help possible, so either way, all the group helps in raising all the kids born, and babies are not singled out or separated because the mother didn’t have a proper partner. > > It seems to be more agricultural societies (and those with inheritance laws/customs) where the notion of controlling a woman’s sexuality (by restrain or by calling her names and ostracizing her) is more developed. > > And currently, anyways, we’re not in a firmly agricultural society either, so we do not have to keep those customs either. > > And lastly, and I think this is a point Sehkmet was trying to make… just because it is exists, doesn’t mean it have to exist and continue to be done. I’m not even going to pretend to be an expert at modern hunter-gatherers, but I will say that they’re different from our own ancestors in at least one way: they stayed hunter-gatherers, and we didn’t. That would imply there was something about their circumstances that either allowed them to continue to be hunter-gathers, or prevented them from doing something different. Either way, I’d still argue that a mom with a partner who is committed to protecting and providing for her and her baby is at an advantage compared to one doesn’t. Especially if you believe that ancient hunter-gatherer societies were resource-constrained, in terms of food, and at least occasionally got into armed conflicts with other groups, and had to move around a lot, just to survive. Men, on the other hand, at least from a genetic point of view, are better off spending as much time as possible getting laid, and as little time as possible taking care of babies, or their moms. They call men like that dead-beat dads, or “assholes”, for short. Marriage, at least, isn’t a matter of controlling women’s sexuality. It’s about controlling men’s. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-feminism-slut-shaming-isnt-slut-shaming-mainly-done-by-females-to-other-females/686043/67 "2014-04-18T00:23:57Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Marriage, at least, isn’t a matter of controlling women’s sexuality. It’s about controlling men’s. Historically, its about controlling women’s. Men could take mistresses without social shame. Women - generally - could not (there are a few exceptions of women who managed to buck the system - but most didn’t - check out Mary Bruce, Countess of Elgin. Or Goeorgiana, Duchess of Devonshire - who raised her husband’s daughter by his mistress in her own home, but was forced to give up her own daughter by her lover to save her marriage.) ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-feminism-slut-shaming-isnt-slut-shaming-mainly-done-by-females-to-other-females/686043/68 "2014-04-18T18:26:21Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Historically, its about controlling women’s. Men could take mistresses without social shame. Women - generally - could not (there are a few exceptions of women who managed to buck the system - but most didn’t - check out Mary Bruce, Countess of Elgin. Or Goeorgiana, Duchess of Devonshire - who raised her husband’s daughter by his mistress in her own home, but was forced to give up her own daughter by her lover to save her marriage.) It’s kind of a non-sequitur. The point is that once a man married, he was responsible for the woman (women) and her children. It’s a way of preventing what men’s asshole genes would otherwise have us doing - spending as much time as possible having sex with as many women as possible, without spending any time being responsible for the inevitable consequences. (Our genes are like that, because it’s a much better reproductive strategy for us - albeit a really shitty one for women.) \*BTW, I agree polygamy is unfair. It’s just sort beside the point. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-feminism-slut-shaming-isnt-slut-shaming-mainly-done-by-females-to-other-females/686043/69 "2014-04-18T18:45:19Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > It’s kind of a non-sequitur. > > The point is that once a man married, he was responsible for the woman (women) and her children. > > It’s a way of preventing what men’s asshole genes would otherwise have us doing - spending as much time as possible having sex with as many women as possible, without spending any time being responsible for the inevitable consequences. > > (Our genes are like that, because it’s a much better reproductive strategy for us - albeit a really shitty one for women.) > > \*BTW, I agree polygamy is unfair. It’s just sort beside the point. That isn’t controlling their sexuality, its controlling their resources. And it isn’t true. For most of Western history a man has been able to divorce his wife and abandon his children without repercussions. Morevoer, if a man spent his resources - say on drink (very common through much of Western history) his wife and children suffered with no recourse. This is one of the big changes that occurred in the mid-20th century in women’s rights. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-feminism-slut-shaming-isnt-slut-shaming-mainly-done-by-females-to-other-females/686043/70 "2014-04-18T18:56:51Z")
While I think that most of what **LinusK** mentions is just “this story sounds nice” vs “this is something true and here are the genes to back it up”, perhaps it is wise to remember that if such was the importance of marriage (and what he claims about the others not helping out), if most men were like that and didn’t spend time with any woman or taking care of any childen (whether his own or a relative’s), would likely NOT have any good descendants left. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-feminism-slut-shaming-isnt-slut-shaming-mainly-done-by-females-to-other-females/686043/71 "2014-04-18T19:54:34Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > While I think that most of what **LinusK** mentions is just “this story sounds nice” vs “this is something true and here are the genes to back it up”, perhaps it is wise to remember that if such was the importance of marriage (and what he claims about the others not helping out), if most men were like that and didn’t spend time with any woman or taking care of any childen (whether his own or a relative’s), would likely NOT have any good descendants left. It’s called the tragedy of the commons. (I think there’s a better name for it, but I’m not coming up with it right now.) It’s when “individuals, acting independently and rationally according to each one’s self-interest, behave contrary to the whole group’s long-term best interests.” Of course, if all men acted like that, it’d be bad for everybody. So communities come up with norms or institutions to prevent it. Like marriage. But that doesn’t mean there aren’t incentives for some men to get around them. From a selfish gene point of view, you’re better off moving on to the next conquest, rather than sticking around. Especially if you can count on a girl’s community or family to take care of the girl and her child. (Of course, it’s not such a great deal for them.) ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-feminism-slut-shaming-isnt-slut-shaming-mainly-done-by-females-to-other-females/686043/72 "2014-04-18T20:01:36Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > That isn’t controlling their sexuality, its controlling their resources. And it isn’t true. For most of Western history a man has been able to divorce his wife and abandon his children without repercussions. Morevoer, if a man spent his resources - say on drink (very common through much of Western history) his wife and children suffered with no recourse. This is one of the big changes that occurred in the mid-20th century in women’s rights. I disagree. The Catholic Church prohibited (prohibits?) divorce. And it used to be divorce was difficult or impossible to get, depending on the law and custom of the times. And then there’s alimony and child support, which are also repercussions. Of course, there’s always been drunks, and bums, and rapscallions and lotharios. Just like there’s always been “sluts”. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-feminism-slut-shaming-isnt-slut-shaming-mainly-done-by-females-to-other-females/686043/73 "2014-04-18T20:27:11Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > I disagree. The Catholic Church prohibited (prohibits?) divorce. And it used to be divorce was difficult or impossible to get, depending on the law and custom of the times. And then there’s alimony and child support, which are also repercussions. > > Of course, there’s always been drunks, and bums, and rapscallions and lotharios. Just like there’s always been “sluts”. But all of this is about legitimate and illegitimate kids, not sex. Men and women have always produced kids outside of marriage, but thanks to property laws and traditions specific to a certain social structure, those kids were not entitled to their fathers estate in much of recent history. Divorce was discouraged because it screwed up inherence patterns. ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-feminism-slut-shaming-isnt-slut-shaming-mainly-done-by-females-to-other-females/686043/74 "2014-04-21T18:02:54Z")
> [@astro](#): > > The notion of slut shaming in the articles I’ve seen on the topic seemed (to me) to be addressing something that adult men (not adolescents) are communicating and saying out loud on a regular basis to the extent it is culturally pervasive in 2014 and constitutes a form of patriarchal oppression. If it’s not talking socially with their male and female peers or SO’s (and I don’t have access to their private conversations with their SO’s if that’s where it’s happening) how is this control and oppression being expressed? > > Ok … forget about social conversations where I’m drawing my data from. Real world in 2014 how are American men slut-shaming American women today? How are American men actively shaming and pervasively oppressing American women’s sexual freedom today? I think this is as far as I can read this thread without head-desking myself into a concussion. Examples? How about: [“Legitimate rape.”](http://lmgtfy.com/?q=legitimate+rape) Because a lot of the time you know she _really_ wanted it. All of the [Steubenville debacle](http://lmgtfy.com/?q=steubenville+rape). And yes, in that case, the victim’s peers took to social media to say that she’s a slut anyway so what was the big deal that she was gang raped while unconscious? Not to mention the media saying out loud that the ruined lives of the rapists were a far greater tragedy than the ruined life of the victim. [Rush Limbaugh decried Sandra Fluke as nothing but a slut](http://lmgtfy.com/?q=rush+limbaugh+sandra+fluke) – in so many words – who wants you, the taxpayer, to pay for her fucking, because she publicly advocated for accessible birth control. He did this even though she also covered medical reasons other than reproductive ones why a woman might need access. Turn on the TV, read a newspaper. It’s ALL OVER. It’s so easily found with Google that there is no excuse, none at all, for not knowing about these and many, many other examples. Hell, for easy access just Google anything that an old conservative white man said about a woman on the public stage. You can start with Rush, Glenn Beck, or any Tea Party Senator. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-feminism-slut-shaming-isnt-slut-shaming-mainly-done-by-females-to-other-females/686043.md?page=3)