# Re-Focused essay on suicidality **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 14, 2014, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-focused-essay-on-suicidality/693068 "2014-07-14T13:12:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-focused-essay-on-suicidality/693068/41 "2014-07-15T13:08:18Z")
> [@Ecmandu](#): > > The reason I use a number of 30:1 is because we know that the female suicide attempt rate is 3 times higher than the male suicide attempt rate. If testosterone were to blame as some people suggest, then both the male completion and male attempt rates would be higher because men would make more mistakes as well… [You don’t don’t know what the hell you’re talking about.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_and_suicide#United_States) ---
**Author:** ![Ecmandu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/958977/32.png) [@Ecmandu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ecmandu)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-focused-essay-on-suicidality/693068/42 "2014-07-15T13:19:17Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [You don’t don’t know what the hell you’re talking about.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_and_suicide#United_States) The figure for the world is 4.1:1 … I’ve never heard of someone suggesting that it was as high as 10:1… even for the united states, they may be trying to calculate accidental suicide deaths for insurance, who knows. 10:1 is not in standard suicidology. If it is 10:1 then even without the attempt modulation… the number of male suicides far exceeds the number of deaths from war homicide and female suicide combined… you could probably start throwing in diseases like diabetes as well. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-focused-essay-on-suicidality/693068/43 "2014-07-15T13:23:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [You don’t don’t know what the hell you’re talking about.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_and_suicide#United_States) His post is his cite. > [@Ecmandu](#): > > I’m the one who figured this out, so you won’t find this statistic in suicidology. ---
**Author:** ![Ecmandu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/958977/32.png) [@Ecmandu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ecmandu)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-focused-essay-on-suicidality/693068/44 "2014-07-15T13:31:21Z")
The suicidology standard for decades has been an ~ 4.1:1 ratio for suicide completions and a 3:1 ratio for attempts… I found these numbers still solid on international suicidology sites within the last year. Just look up WHO statistics or the international organization of suicidology. Anyways… my point is that most female COMPLETIONS are failed attempts… even though they are completions, the cause is actually an attempt, which modulates the figure to 30:1. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-focused-essay-on-suicidality/693068/45 "2014-07-15T13:41:50Z")
> [@Ecmandu](#): > > The suicidology standard for decades has been an ~ 4.1:1 ratio for suicide completions and a 3:1 ratio for attempts… I found these numbers still solid on international suicidology sites within the last year. Just look up WHO statistics or the international organization of suicidology. > > Anyways… my point is that most female COMPLETIONS are failed attempts… even though they are completions, the cause is actually an attempt, which modulates the figure to 30:1. Show your work. If you run out of space, use the back of this message board for your equations. ---
**Author:** ![Ecmandu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/958977/32.png) [@Ecmandu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ecmandu)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-focused-essay-on-suicidality/693068/46 "2014-07-15T13:46:43Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > His post is his cite. Hmm… I’m looking for the 3:1 ratio which used to just be listed on all the basic fact sheet sites on the main suicidology sites in the world. I’m not sure how the number changed to 1:2 from 1:3 in a few months and why those stats were taken down and not simply changed… I’m perplexed that wikipedia is the only source for this right now. I just did some digging. Anyhow… let’s assume for the sake of argument that it’s 1:2 now… my reasoning still stands, and it completely misses the structure of my argument by citing numbers that have drastically changed in a few months, because even those numbers make my argument. Also the wikipedia site says that women seek more professional help than men do, which also backs my argument. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-focused-essay-on-suicidality/693068/47 "2014-07-15T13:49:23Z")
Is that even a real ology? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-focused-essay-on-suicidality/693068/48 "2014-07-15T13:50:57Z")
> [@Ecmandu](#): > > Hmm… I’m looking for the 3:1 ratio which used to just be listed on all the basic fact sheet sites on the main suicidology sites in the world. I’m not sure how the number changed to 1:2 from 1:3 in a few months and why those stats were taken down and not simply changed… I’m perplexed that wikipedia is the only source for this right now. > > I just did some digging. > > Anyhow… let’s assume for the sake of argument that it’s 1:2 now… my reasoning still stands, and it completely misses the structure of my argument by citing numbers that have drastically changed in a few months, because even those numbers make my argument. Also the wikipedia site says that women seek more professional help than men do, which also backs my argument. If your argument is independent of what the numbers say, then do not pretend that any number supports your argument. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-focused-essay-on-suicidality/693068/49 "2014-07-15T13:55:53Z")
> [@Ecmandu](#): > > It’s not about being robots or sex slaves… women and men by definition have the same exact distribution… there can only be one man for each woman. The problem is the stratification of sexual variety. Women basically get, from a very small percentage of men, all of the sexual variety they could ever want… and a very large percentage of men have increased stress and depression because of this phenomenon. Do you have a proposed solution to this? Does it involve women being mandated to have sex with you, in the interests of fairness and equity? ---
**Author:** ![Ecmandu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/958977/32.png) [@Ecmandu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ecmandu)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-focused-essay-on-suicidality/693068/50 "2014-07-15T13:59:55Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > If your argument is independent of what the numbers say, then do not pretend that any number supports your argument. Let’s assume for arguments sake that the wikipedia entry is actually the correct numbers… for some bizarre reason, but let’s just assume that. The change actually RAISES the male suicide rate and decreases the female attempt rate… but it still makes the female attempt rate very significantly higher than the male attempt rate… which means that females attempt more than men do. Refer back to the post where I explained why females attempt more than men do. My point still stands… everything on that site still defends my argument and interpretation. Just because I got some of the numbers “wrong”, actually doesn’t hurt my argument with these modified statistics… all the wikipedia site does is say that women attempt less than what I stated but men are even more lethal than they were before, but women still attempt way more than men do. And to be perfectly honest… I think there’s a cover-up going on because of my arguments sent to these organizations. The higher the female attempt rate is, the better my argument is… but even at a rate of 1:2, my argument still stands. they’re using 2009 statistics on the wikipedia page, and the suicide attempt ratio was 3:1 just a few months ago. ---
**Author:** ![Ecmandu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/958977/32.png) [@Ecmandu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ecmandu)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-focused-essay-on-suicidality/693068/51 "2014-07-15T14:07:55Z")
I’d be willing to bet that the reason places in rural China and India have higher suicide rates than men is because female sexual stratification is greater than male sexual stratification. Suicidologists like to come up with very fancy theories that aren’t practical… lots of psychobabble to avoid saying outright that the leading cause of suicide is the stratification of sexual variety. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-focused-essay-on-suicidality/693068/52 "2014-07-15T14:19:18Z")
Wow, pot meet kettle. Do you have anything more than a “just-so” story? Better yet, do you have one that isn’t contradicted by the **actual** numbers (versus the **pretend** numbers you made up)? And further, anything remotely resembling a valid academic study of the topic? If not, you’re just spinning your wheels. You made your statement. It was processed and dismissed (lack of evidence). Time to let it go unless you’ve got new evidence (and not just rehashes of what you already have). ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-focused-essay-on-suicidality/693068/53 "2014-07-15T14:20:57Z")
> [@Ecmandu](#): > > It’s impossible to receive sex from a female if you don’t approach or flirt with them. It always has been. In instances where this is not the case, someone who does these things must point them towards you. Women have no capacity to detect men who prevent sexual harassment, and zero capacity to give them sex. I’m willing to have a serious non-snarky conversation with you about this, but you’re going to have to unpack the above statements. Are you saying that there (currently) exists a situation in which women only react to male initiative, or are you saying that there (always has been & always will be) in existence a situation in which women are somehow hardwired to be physically or mentally incapable of taking sexual initiative? Also, I have to say that if you’re going to start out identifying a lack of sexual reciprocity, it doesn’t make sense to then follow by using the phrase “give them sex”, as if sex were indeed a gift from women to men. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-focused-essay-on-suicidality/693068/54 "2014-07-15T14:23:15Z")
> [@Ecmandu](#): > > And to be perfectly honest… I think there’s a cover-up going on because of my arguments sent to these organizations. What is your evidence for this “cover-up”? Or that anyone even read and took your ‘arguments’ seriously? ---
**Author:** ![Ecmandu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/958977/32.png) [@Ecmandu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ecmandu)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-focused-essay-on-suicidality/693068/55 "2014-07-15T14:43:11Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > I’m willing to have a serious non-snarky conversation with you about this, but you’re going to have to unpack the above statements. > > Are you saying that there (currently) exists a situation in which women only react to male initiative, or are you saying that there (always has been & always will be) in existence a situation in which women are somehow hardwired to be physically or mentally incapable of taking sexual initiative? > > Also, I have to say that if you’re going to start out identifying a lack of sexual reciprocity, it doesn’t make sense to then follow by using the phrase “give them sex”, as if sex were indeed a gift from women to men. I think females will always sexually blackmail males who point out that suicide is caused by sexual stratification and inequitable approach (inequitable approach for the gender that LEAST likes to be approached would still cause a high level of sexual harassment on women) The technical argument is that men who don’t sexually harass women, which includes not approaching or flirting with them will not get sex. This will not change, because men will respond as the men on this board, needing to defend the female denial system in order to receive sex, so while the female suicide rate will become basically if not completely zero, the male rates will stay stable. ---
**Author:** ![Ecmandu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/958977/32.png) [@Ecmandu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ecmandu)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-focused-essay-on-suicidality/693068/56 "2014-07-15T14:46:42Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Wow, pot meet kettle. > > Do you have anything more than a “just-so” story? Better yet, do you have one that isn’t contradicted by the **actual** numbers (versus the **pretend** numbers you made up)? And further, anything remotely resembling a valid academic study of the topic? > > If not, you’re just spinning your wheels. You made your statement. It was processed and dismissed (lack of evidence). Time to let it go unless you’ve got new evidence (and not just rehashes of what you already have). Ok, this is getting seriously deranged. FORGET I EVER SAID THAT THE ATTEMPT TO COMPLETION RATIO WAS 3:1 FOR THE LAST 20 YEARS UP TO THREE MONTHS AGO!!! Let’s just assume it’s ALWAYS been 2:1 My argument still stands. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-focused-essay-on-suicidality/693068/57 "2014-07-15T14:50:11Z")
> [@Ecmandu](#): > > The technical argument is that men who don’t sexually harass women, which includes not approaching or flirting with them will not get sex. I’m no George Clooney or anything, but I’ve had women approach me for sex. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-focused-essay-on-suicidality/693068/58 "2014-07-15T14:52:25Z")
Are you perhaps using an idiosyncratic definition of “suicide?” Because I can assure you that the number of men not currently getting laid is several orders of magnitude higher than the number of men who kill themselves. Or are you actually wondering why “Have sex with me or I will kill myself” is not working for you as a pickup line? ---
**Author:** ![Ecmandu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/958977/32.png) [@Ecmandu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ecmandu)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-focused-essay-on-suicidality/693068/59 "2014-07-15T14:54:30Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m no George Clooney or anything, but I’ve had women approach me for sex. I have as well… but I used specific behavioral patterns that I now know are sexual harassment. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-focused-essay-on-suicidality/693068/60 "2014-07-15T14:55:41Z")
> [@Ecmandu](#): > > Let’s just assume it’s ALWAYS been 2:1 > > My argument still stands. No, it really doesn’t. You made your pitch. It crashed and burned. Do you have anything new to add? Or was that the extent of your witnessing? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-focused-essay-on-suicidality/693068.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-focused-essay-on-suicidality/693068.md?page=4)