# Re Greek unions & protesters violently fighting EU austerity plan - What's their solution? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 5, 2010, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-greek-unions-protesters-violently-fighting-eu-austerity-plan-whats-their-solution/538353 "2010-05-05T00:42:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-greek-unions-protesters-violently-fighting-eu-austerity-plan-whats-their-solution/538353/41 "2010-05-07T05:03:33Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The Tea PARTY is peacefully asking for their representatives to spend money wisely. The protesting Greek Communist party is violently demanding more spending. I’d say they are the exact opposite of each other. The “Tea Party” has engaged in violence and threats of violence. Nor have they demonstrated any interest in money being spent “more wisely”; they want it spent on them, and cut for everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-greek-unions-protesters-violently-fighting-eu-austerity-plan-whats-their-solution/538353/42 "2010-05-07T05:33:58Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The “Tea Party” has engaged in violence and threats of violence. Nor have they demonstrated any interest in money being spent “more wisely”; they want it spent on them, and cut for everyone else. Well, [40% of them are Democrats or independents](http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/polls/90541-survey-four-in-10-tea-party-members-dem-or-indie) so there are bound to be a few trouble makers. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-greek-unions-protesters-violently-fighting-eu-austerity-plan-whats-their-solution/538353/43 "2010-05-07T05:37:32Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Well, [40% of them are Democrats or independents](http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/polls/90541-survey-four-in-10-tea-party-members-dem-or-indie) so there are bound to be a few trouble makers. Assuming that to be true (not that I buy it), so what? They are a bunch of scum; the thuggish, ignorant, bigoted, idiotic, incoherent fringe of America politics. And it’s not the Democrats who are pandering to them. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-greek-unions-protesters-violently-fighting-eu-austerity-plan-whats-their-solution/538353/44 "2010-05-07T05:48:44Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > You just talk to yourself because you like what you hear. That’s a very constructive thing to say in GD :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > You are correct that Greece loses $30,000,000,000 a year in tax dodging.[cite](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world/europe/02evasion.html). > That isn’t the uber-rich, or big business, that is the ordinary Greek people, and the middle classes, who have resisted all attempts at tax reform, even when the EU kept on telling them that they needed to deal with the issue. I didn’t actually say “uber-rich”. I said wealthy people, and guess what, so does your cite. The point is it isn’t the lower-paid public sector workers, who are going to be hit hardest by the austerity measures, who are responsible for this big hole in the tax take. As for big business not being an element in this, see my other post about all the tax _exemptions_. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-greek-unions-protesters-violently-fighting-eu-austerity-plan-whats-their-solution/538353/45 "2010-05-07T06:05:05Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Assuming that to be true (not that I buy it), so what? They are a bunch of scum; the thuggish, ignorant, bigoted, idiotic, incoherent fringe of America politics. And it’s not the Democrats who are pandering to them. Maybe in your world demonstrating against runaway spending is idiotic but not for the bipartisan group of Tea Party protesters. There are still people who recognize waste when then see it. My city just received 10 hybrid buses from the “stimulus money”. They cost $540,000 apiece. This is a city with ELECTRIC buses. Who’s paying for them? Your city? My state got millions of dollars of “stimulus money” to build a hi-speed rail that will not have enough service to pay for itself. Who’s going to pay for it? Your state? If every city, town and state got a piece of this package who is left to pay for it? It’s borrowed money. The events in Greece are happening because it’s collapsing in on itself. There is nothing stopping that from happening in the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-greek-unions-protesters-violently-fighting-eu-austerity-plan-whats-their-solution/538353/46 "2010-05-07T06:12:10Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Maybe in your world demonstrating against runaway spending is idiotic but not for the bipartisan group of Tea Party protesters. There are still people who recognize waste when then see it. Please. They don’t care in the slightest about “runaway spending”, which is why they were silent about Bush spending like a drunken sailor. They care that there’s a black Democrat in office. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-greek-unions-protesters-violently-fighting-eu-austerity-plan-whats-their-solution/538353/47 "2010-05-07T06:19:46Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Please. They don’t care in the slightest about “runaway spending”, which is why they were silent about Bush spending like a drunken sailor. They care that there’s a black Democrat in office. You are imparting your twisted view of the world on people you’ve never met. That’s pure bigotry on your part. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-greek-unions-protesters-violently-fighting-eu-austerity-plan-whats-their-solution/538353/48 "2010-05-07T06:24:21Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You are imparting your twisted view of the world on people you’ve never met. That’s pure bigotry on your part. :rolleyes: Don’t be silly. The racism has been quite obvious, and their invisibility during the Bush spending splurge as well. They are the scummy fringe of the Right, not the well meaning people you are trying to pretend they are. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-greek-unions-protesters-violently-fighting-eu-austerity-plan-whats-their-solution/538353/49 "2010-05-07T06:55:14Z")
> [@astro](#): > > [Re the violent Greek protests](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/mar/12/cutback-protests-turn-violent-strike-cripples-gree/) at the EU austerity measures as part of the bailout plan I’m curious, with the Greek economy more or less upside down at this point , there really doesn’t seem to be any other logical way for Greece to go to get a bailout and stay part of the EU. > > What exactly do the protesters think \*should \*happen at this point? I don’t think they have a plan, I think they are just rebelling against what they see as plutocratic rule. People want high services and low taxes. But that isn’t a realistic long term strategy to running a country. However, this current economic crisis was due in part to plutocratic mismanagement in the US spreading to the global economy. Now pensioners and laborers in Greece are being asked to make sacrifices, while the people who really brought this crisis about are still enjoying high pay and low taxes. Wall street bankers paid themselves 1% of GDP in 2009, just like they did in 2008 while pensioners in Greece are being asked to make sacrifices. So there is naturally going to be resentment over that. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-greek-unions-protesters-violently-fighting-eu-austerity-plan-whats-their-solution/538353/50 "2010-05-07T07:24:24Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > :rolleyes: Don’t be silly. The racism has been quite obvious, and their invisibility during the Bush spending splurge as well. They are the scummy fringe of the Right, not the well meaning people you are trying to pretend they are. If you listened to the right wingers on the radio you’d know that Bush and Republicans were soundly criticized for excessive spending. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-greek-unions-protesters-violently-fighting-eu-austerity-plan-whats-their-solution/538353/51 "2010-05-07T07:34:47Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If you listened to the right wingers on the radio you’d know that Bush and Republicans were soundly criticized for excessive spending. Nonsense, Bush didn’t get anywhere near this criticism from the right, and certainly didn’t face this kind of violence and threats of violence. Nor was the right claiming that Bush was the Antichrist, or a socialist, or a foreigner, or the innumerable other lunatic things we see from the right. On the contrary, he was treated with near worship, often to the point of being treated as some sort of prophet or Messiah complete with heavy religious pressure to vote for him. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-greek-unions-protesters-violently-fighting-eu-austerity-plan-whats-their-solution/538353/52 "2010-05-07T07:40:06Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Nonsense, Bush didn’t get anywhere near this criticism from the right, and certainly didn’t face this kind of violence and threats of violence. Nor was the right claiming that Bush was the Antichrist, or a socialist, or a foreigner, or the innumerable other lunatic things we see from the right. On the contrary, he was treated with near worship, often to the point of being treated as some sort of prophet or Messiah complete with heavy religious pressure to vote for him. You had me all the way up to claiming he was being worshiped. Total nonsense. The religious pressure to vote for him wasn’t because they considered him the Messiah, but because he was receptive to religious political agendas. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-greek-unions-protesters-violently-fighting-eu-austerity-plan-whats-their-solution/538353/53 "2010-05-07T08:14:43Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > … However, this current economic crisis was due in part to plutocratic mismanagement in the US spreading to the global economy. Now pensioners and laborers in Greece are being asked to make sacrifices, while the people who really brought this crisis about are still enjoying high pay and low taxes. Wall street bankers paid themselves 1% of GDP in 2009, just like they did in 2008 while pensioners in Greece are being asked to make sacrifices. So there is naturally going to be resentment over that. The Greek crisis isn’t because of Americans and Wall Street. You people are not the centre of the fucking world and every fucking problem in it for fuck’s sake. The Greek crisis is because the Greeks were spending too much, and not on useful investment but on a wasteful, corrupt welfare state as a form of bribery to those labourers. Who were quite happy to vote for said things. The current economic downturn only exposed the _ **inevitable** _ - unless you think that there was never going to be a recession at all, and somehow Greece would magically change the path it was on (including the Government actively generating _ **fraudulent** _ economic statistics) the Greek problem really has fuck all to do with “Wall Street.” The resentment on the part of the Greeks (except if it is directed at the corruption and tax evasion **in Greece** ) is entirely misdirected and not at all justifiable. So the Greeks are shouting slogans “Get out EU” as thanks for the EU rescuing them from utter collapse (that is the tax payer Euros etc of the rest of the actually hard working part of the continent) - my response is, “Fuck off you slimy gits, we’ll gladly let you hang.” ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-greek-unions-protesters-violently-fighting-eu-austerity-plan-whats-their-solution/538353/54 "2010-05-07T08:34:45Z")
And can we take the Bush Bush USA USA USA discussion to any one of the ten thousand American centric discussions, please and stop the hijack? ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-greek-unions-protesters-violently-fighting-eu-austerity-plan-whats-their-solution/538353/55 "2010-05-07T08:38:49Z")
There is also a comparable large communist element in the protests. Their solution would be doing away with the capitalist system altogether. However, as usual with demonstrators, the few protesters think too highly of themselves and it is far from clear that the protesters represent any substantial portion of the Greek population beyond the 0.5% or so physically there. And especially after a young pregnant girl was killed. She was a mathematician and had a graduate degree in accounting, just what Greece need in the current crisis. What a bloody useless waste. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-greek-unions-protesters-violently-fighting-eu-austerity-plan-whats-their-solution/538353/56 "2010-05-07T08:45:42Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > … And especially after a young pregnant girl was killed. She was a mathematician and had a graduate degree in accounting, just what Greece need in the current crisis. What a bloody useless waste. Obviously she was a capitalist tool, though, since she was somewhere near a bank… ---
**Author:** ![carm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@carm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carm)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-greek-unions-protesters-violently-fighting-eu-austerity-plan-whats-their-solution/538353/57 "2010-05-07T12:54:34Z")
With respect to the OP, I have a lot of sympathy for the working class in Greece, and very little for the middle class and the rich. As far as I understand, the rich paid almost no taxes. Corruption among officials was rife. Union leaders pushed for cushier and cushier working conditions, and the government was pretty much spineless and gave in every time. As the saying goes, with power comes responsibility; the most culpable are the Greek Finance Minister, the government, and its central bank. To blame the poor for the government spending too much is unfair, as is blaming them for their ridiculous working conditions. Of course if their unions tell them they should be getting more bonuses, to keep them in line with some other union, they are going to agree, who wouldn’t? What blue-collar worker is going to look at the country’s balance sheet and decide they _shouldn’t_ get more bonuses? That’s the government’s job. Most likely the _vast_ majority of ordinary Greeks had no idea at all that their country was in such a mess. The government’s first response should have been to go after the tax-dodgers. Instead they went after the working class and middle class. Quite rightly, the populace is up in arms, and if I lived there, I would be out on the streets protesting too. I think they all know they have to make cuts or else face bankruptcy. However, they can make a lot of different cuts than the ones they are making, and letting the rich off scot-free is just not acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![glilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/48db29/32.png) [@glilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glilly)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-greek-unions-protesters-violently-fighting-eu-austerity-plan-whats-their-solution/538353/58 "2010-05-07T15:49:39Z")
An NPR story about the protests said that news of the fatalities in the bank fire quickly spread, but then so did claims that the firemen were lying. To what end they did not explain. A particular protester blamed Obama. He did this to Greece to bring down the Euro to prop up the dollar. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-greek-unions-protesters-violently-fighting-eu-austerity-plan-whats-their-solution/538353/59 "2010-05-07T16:06:27Z")
> [@glilly](#): > > An NPR story about the protests said that news of the fatalities in the bank fire quickly spread, but then so did claims that the firemen were lying. To what end they did not explain. > > A particular protester blamed Obama. He did this to Greece to bring down the Euro to prop up the dollar. That’s a strange rumour. A weak Euro is the Greeks best bet. In fact the weak Euro is the best thing to have happened to the Danish economy for a while, apparently it will lead to about 10% of the unemployed getting jobs just on account of that. The investors fleeing PIIGS bonds is also great for Denmark. I think the Greeks should try with a different rumour, that the Germans are deliberately undermining the Greek economy to weaken the Euro. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-greek-unions-protesters-violently-fighting-eu-austerity-plan-whats-their-solution/538353/60 "2010-05-07T16:57:06Z")
> [@carm](#): > > With respect to the OP, I have a lot of sympathy for the working class in Greece, and very little for the middle class and the rich. As far as I understand, the rich paid almost no taxes. Corruption among officials was rife. Union leaders pushed for cushier and cushier working conditions, and the government was pretty much spineless and gave in every time. As the saying goes, with power comes responsibility; the most culpable are the Greek Finance Minister, the government, and its central bank. To blame the poor for the government spending too much is unfair, as is blaming them for their ridiculous working conditions. Of course if their unions tell them they should be getting more bonuses, to keep them in line with some other union, they are going to agree, who wouldn’t? Unless somehow Greek trade union leaders and the working class are mental defectives, it was pretty damned obvious that the Greeks had far cushier benefits, retirement standards, etc. than wealthier countries. Doesn’t take a genius to figure out that such conditions are not sustainable. > [@glilly](#): > > An NPR story about the protests said that news of the fatalities in the bank fire quickly spread, but then so did claims that the firemen were lying. To what end they did not explain. > > A particular protester blamed Obama. He did this to Greece to bring down the Euro to prop up the dollar. Various excuse making lame brained conspiracy theories. Always “not our fault” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-greek-unions-protesters-violently-fighting-eu-austerity-plan-whats-their-solution/538353.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-greek-unions-protesters-violently-fighting-eu-austerity-plan-whats-their-solution/538353.md?page=4)