# Re Greek unions & protesters violently fighting EU austerity plan - What's their solution? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 5, 2010, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-greek-unions-protesters-violently-fighting-eu-austerity-plan-whats-their-solution/538353 "2010-05-05T00:42:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-greek-unions-protesters-violently-fighting-eu-austerity-plan-whats-their-solution/538353/81 "2010-05-09T07:00:06Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > Eh, PASOK is Panhellic **Socialist** party. They’re as far from being liberal as… well the French. They really aren’t a _socialist_ party, though. They’re social democrats and have moved steadily to the right under the current leadership (even before this crisis unfolded). Describing them as a “liberal” government, in the US rather than European meaning of “liberal”, wouldn’t be inaccurate. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-greek-unions-protesters-violently-fighting-eu-austerity-plan-whats-their-solution/538353/82 "2010-05-09T11:12:07Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > They really aren’t a _socialist_ party, though. They’re social democrats and have moved steadily to the right under the current leadership (even before this crisis unfolded). Describing them as a “liberal” government, in the US rather than European meaning of “liberal”, wouldn’t be inaccurate. I had thought he was saying liberal in the sense of our liberal, but you’re probably right. > [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Spain and Italy are two of Germany’s largest export markets. They’re not \*\*Greece \*\*now are they? I’ve already stated my opinion that Spain did not a bad job - and Italy in any case finances is debt off of domestic savings for the most part. Everything I have said re the blame is about Greece, not Spain, not Italy. Nor have you in any way explained how the Germans can possibly be said to bear responsibility for the incompetence and fraud on the Greek Government, nor why a private exporters to private buyers bear responsibility for another country’s _Governmental_ corruption, fraud, and active deception in the market. If you have some hard figures with cites that somehow Greek government buying of equipment and services (or that said was a heavy contributor to Greek debt build) was heavily German & that somehow the German Government induced that, this entire line of discussion is nothing but a red herring. > [@](#): > > “Supposedly safe” does not equal “guaranteed.” EU Euro zone debt was classified by regulatory authorities - national and European - AND private raters as “ **risk free.** ” That means, in real world terms, guaranteed. It’s the kind of thing that fixed income grannies are supposed to invest in. This is not Toxic Assets of some exotic rubbish the American I-Banks thought up, this is plain vanilla government debt, by a member of the EU and part of Euro zone. > [@](#): > > If these banks, who are supposed to be more sophisticated about this stuff, couldn’t do their due diligence and make a realistic assessment of Greece’s solvency Well, since the banks and retirement funds were being told by both private rating agencies AND EU authorities the Greek issuances were A-OK, and the Greek Government was actively deceiving via fraudulent numbers EUROSTAT and all the Brussels inquiries, I’d say, No that’s not a realistic proposition. What the fuck is the bank or retirement fund place Grannie Moeller’s pension savings supposed to do, go to Brussels and say, “Hey mates, we think your statistics authority and the European Central Bank, well they’re just completely wrong about Greece…” And anyone shorting the market would be attacked by people like you as evil speculators, blah blah. > [@](#): > > (I seem to recall news stories from 3 or 4 years ago raising the question of whether Greece had cooked the books to gain entrance into the eurozone, so it’s not like this is all completely out of left field) then they should expect to lose on their investment. Instead, working class Greeks are going to be forced into years of stagnancy and pain just to protect foreign bank investments. See above, and in addition, Brussels had claimed that the Greeks had cleaned up, the figures were accepted. What fucking standing do you see for a private investor to win in second guessing that? But see mate, what I understand is that behind the convenient abstraction of “foreign bank investments” are actually the savings of other ordinary Germans, French, English etc; people’s retirement savings, and I also don’t have a lick of sympathy for the Greeks living high on the hog borrowing Grannie Moeller’s savings - because it’s those kinds of savings that plump for low yielding EU zone bonds - and pissing it away on inflated public salaries, early retirement benefits that would make anyone blush and causing collateral damage to the Spanish who did a respectable job of trying to build themselves up using EU and private cash. “Banks” are a convenient target to avoid the reality that in fact the Greeks have already wasted **working class Germans, French, Dutch, English etc** savings. Fuck the Greeks. If we’re going to defend the EU, I’ll first prefer to defend Spain and Portugal that have at least been properly trying and not spending decades lying. > [@](#): > > Just out of curiosity, did you have any accounts in an Icelandic bank? No, I am not so stupid. but yeah I know people who did. The bankers and the like deserve every bit of scorn for the explosion of 2008 with that crazy American financial engineering. But this ain’t the same fucking problem. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-greek-unions-protesters-violently-fighting-eu-austerity-plan-whats-their-solution/538353/83 "2010-05-09T15:19:37Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > They’re not \*\*Greece \*\*now are they? I’ve already stated my opinion that Spain did not a bad job - and Italy in any case finances is debt off of domestic savings for the most part. Everything I have said re the blame is about Greece, not Spain, not Italy. > > Nor have you in any way explained how the Germans can possibly be said to bear responsibility for the incompetence and fraud on the Greek Government, nor why a private exporters to private buyers bear responsibility for another country’s _Governmental_ corruption, fraud, and active deception in the market. > > If you have some hard figures with cites that somehow Greek government buying of equipment and services (or that said was a heavy contributor to Greek debt build) was heavily German & that somehow the German Government induced that, this entire line of discussion is nothing but a red herring. Why do you think they’re looking to bail out Greece? Because this is an attack on the euro itself. Long-term debt rates have started climbing in Portugal, and it will only spread as investors lose confidence in the currency. It is absolutely in Germany’s interest to keep the contagion from spreading lest it affect its neighbors’ willingness to import German goods. And I never said that Germany bears responsibility for Greece cooking the books. But they’re the second largest exporter in the world. Their economy is dependent on maintaining a positive trade balance. They need their neighbors to keep buying, even if it means they go into debt. So if they’re going to maintain this whole euro thing, with no real central banking authority and no control over monetary policy by the individual states, then they’ll pretty much have to accept these bubbles and the consequences that follow them. And in terms of what they spent the money on…like I said, immaterial. They didn’t spend it on anything the other PIIGS didn’t spend it on. It was typical Keynesian stimulus that lowered unemployment, with some pension benefits and extra military spending mixed in. If the global economy hadn’t cratered they’d still be spending and other countries would still be lending to them. > [@](#): > > EU Euro zone debt was classified by regulatory authorities - national and European - AND private raters as “ **risk free.** ” > > That means, in real world terms, guaranteed. Cite? The only thing I know of that’s termed “risk free” are 3 month T-bills, but it’s always in quotes because they’re only risk free in the practical sense. And who are these European regulatory authorities that are supposedly doing the classifying? The EU doesn’t have it’s own rating agency, though it’s talking about creating one now that they’ve been burned by S&P and Moody’s like everyone else. > [@](#): > > This is not Toxic Assets of some exotic rubbish the American I-Banks thought up, this is plain vanilla government debt, by a member of the EU and part of Euro zone. So? You don’t think “safe” investments can fail? And Greek government debt was only “safe” if you deluded yourself into believing that the euro provided magic transformative powers of prosperity to its users. Only a handful of countries issue debt that can reasonably be considered “safe,” and Greece was never one of them. The pension funds investing Granny’s money would know that. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-greek-unions-protesters-violently-fighting-eu-austerity-plan-whats-their-solution/538353/84 "2010-05-09T15:34:19Z")
And just so I’m clear: No, Greek workers shouldn’t get paid for 13 months a year or be able to retire at 53. That’s ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-greek-unions-protesters-violently-fighting-eu-austerity-plan-whats-their-solution/538353/85 "2010-05-09T15:34:27Z")
[quote=“MOIDALIZE, post:83, topic:538353”] Why do you think they’re looking to bail out Greece? [;quote] It’s self evident, because the Greeks risk blowing up everyone else. Gives me even less sympathy for them. > [@](#): > > Because this is an attack on the euro itself. The “attack” is merely the edifice built on sand coming down. > [@](#): > > It is absolutely in Germany’s interest to keep the contagion from spreading lest it affect its neighbors’ willingness to import German goods. I never said otherwise, mate. You, however, said: > [@](#): > > Germany isn’t totally blameless in this either, because it was the willingness of countries like Greece to take on debt that helped Germany’s exports. That phrase indicates you’re shifting blame to Germany for Greece taking on debt. Germany is quite blameless in Greek idiocy. > [@](#): > > And in terms of what they spent the money on…like I said, immaterial. They didn’t spend it on anything the other PIIGS didn’t spend it on. It was typical Keynesian stimulus that lowered unemployment, with some pension benefits and extra military spending mixed in. If the global economy hadn’t cratered they’d still be spending and other countries would still be lending to them. Utter tripe, they’ve been spending on current consumption like there was no tomorrow for a full out decade - well before this fucking crisis for fuck’s sake. Spain spent a good chunk on useful reforms and infrastructure, Greece frittered away billions (the fiasco of the Olympics in Greece rather highlight the differences). The only relevance of this crisis to Greece is that the crisis unmasked their frauds and revealed the non-sustainability of their spend now as opposed to five years from now. Unless you have some magical scenario whereby Greek economy reforms itself and generates enough real growth to pay the debt that is. > [@](#): > > Cite? The only thing I know of that’s termed “risk free” are 3 month T-bills, but it’s always in quotes because they’re only risk free in the practical sense. Jaysus Americans are provincial. [http://www.talanton.nl/downloads/Risk%20free%20rate%20An%20introduction.pdf](http://www.talanton.nl/downloads/Risk%20free%20rate%20An%20introduction.pdf) Your US Treasuries are not the only things on the planet for fuck’s sake. > [@](#): > > And who are these European regulatory authorities that are supposedly doing the classifying? Jaysus: European Central Bank and the fucking Euro zone national central banks, that’s why ECB just changed its rules on accepting Greek national bonds last week! > [@](#): > > So? You don’t think “safe” investments can fail? So! So, I find it pretty fucking special to be playing … what is that American phrase, Monday Quarterbacking … to blame investors for having gone for Greek debt in the past few years. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-greek-unions-protesters-violently-fighting-eu-austerity-plan-whats-their-solution/538353/86 "2010-05-09T15:37:22Z")
That link was interesting, but it doesn’t refute anything I said. ---
**Author:** ![Hellestal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-greek-unions-protesters-violently-fighting-eu-austerity-plan-whats-their-solution/538353/87 "2010-05-10T00:48:55Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > See above, and in addition, Brussels had claimed that the Greeks had cleaned up, the figures were accepted. Why did this happen, anyway? Some smart guys in togas lived there 2500 years ago, so we don’t have to double-check their numbers today? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-greek-unions-protesters-violently-fighting-eu-austerity-plan-whats-their-solution/538353.md?page=4)