# Re GWB's legacy - Is he one of the worst POTUS' ever will historians redeem him? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 10, 2008, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-gwbs-legacy-is-he-one-of-the-worst-potus-ever-will-historians-redeem-him/444711 "2008-04-10T01:43:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-gwbs-legacy-is-he-one-of-the-worst-potus-ever-will-historians-redeem-him/444711/121 "2008-04-14T12:50:39Z")
Don’t forget [going soft, or worse, on corporate crime.](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/09/washington/09justice.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=deferred+prosecution+agreements&st=nyt&oref=slogin) > [@](#): > > In a major shift of policy, the Justice Department, once known for taking down giant corporations, including the accounting firm Arthur Andersen, has put off prosecuting more than 50 companies suspected of wrongdoing over the last three years. > > Instead, many companies, from boutique outfits to immense corporations like American Express, have avoided the cost and stigma of defending themselves against criminal charges with a so-called deferred prosecution agreement, which allows the government to collect fines and appoint an outside monitor to impose internal reforms without going through a trial. In many cases, the name of the monitor and the details of the agreement are kept secret. > > Deferred prosecutions have become a favorite tool of the Bush administration. But some legal experts now wonder if the policy shift has led companies, in particular financial institutions now under investigation for their roles in the subprime mortgage debacle, to test the limits of corporate anti-fraud laws. > > Firms have readily agreed to the deferred prosecutions, said Vikramaditya S. Khanna, a law professor at the University of Michigan who has studied their use, because “clearly it avoids a bigger headache for them.” > > Some lawyers suggest that companies may be willing to take more risks because they know that, if they are caught, the chances of getting a deferred prosecution are good. “Some companies may bear the risk” of legally questionable business practices if they believe they can cut a deal to defer their prosecution indefinitely, Mr. Khanna said. > > Legal experts say the tactic may have sent the wrong signal to corporations — the promise, in effect, of a get-out-of-jail-free card. The growing use of deferred prosecutions also suggests one road map the Justice Department might follow in the subprime mortgage investigations. > > Deferred prosecution agreements, or D.P.A.’s, have become controversial because of a medical supply company’s agreement to pay up to $52 million to the consulting firm of John Ashcroft, the former attorney general, as an outside monitor to avoid criminal prosecution. That agreement has prompted Congressional inquiries and calls for stricter guidelines. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-gwbs-legacy-is-he-one-of-the-worst-potus-ever-will-historians-redeem-him/444711/122 "2008-04-14T17:13:36Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Well, contemporary observers called Lincoln a tyrant, and the aforementioned Truman was worked into a pun (To err is Truman…) I’m certainly not saying Bush will be numbered among the greats - just that your opinions on him right now ultimately mean less to the history books than what he does. [/QUOTE] The **Bush = Truman** argument was discussed some time ago. Probably when [this piece](http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2007/08/halberstam200708) ran in _Vanity Fair_. > [@](#): > > In the twilight of his presidency, George W. Bush and his inner circle have been feeding the press with historical parallels: he is Harry Truman—unpopular, besieged, yet ultimately to be vindicated—while Iraq under Saddam was Europe held by Hitler. To a serious student of the past, that’s preposterous. Writing just before his untimely death, David Halberstam asserts that Bush’s “history,” like his war, is based on wishful thinking, arrogance, and a total disdain for the facts. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-gwbs-legacy-is-he-one-of-the-worst-potus-ever-will-historians-redeem-him/444711/123 "2008-04-14T18:28:42Z")
A lot of Truman’s unpopularity was due to decisions that later proved to be correct. He integrated the armed forces, he funded the Marshall Plan to rebuild Europe after WWII, he didn’t send troops into China to fight against Mao, he fired MacArthur for disobeying orders, he committed the United States to NATO, he didn’t invade East Germany during the Berlin Blockade - all of these decisions were controversial at the time they were made and had bitter opponents who forecast disaster would result. Another factor was that Truman’s administration ended around the time the Red Scare was at its peak. People like McCarthy and Nixon and Eisenhower said that Truman wasn’t doing enough to root out Communist influence in the United States. Ironically, most people now feel that the actions Truman did take went too far in the opposite direction. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-gwbs-legacy-is-he-one-of-the-worst-potus-ever-will-historians-redeem-him/444711/124 "2008-04-14T18:40:00Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] A lot of Truman’s unpopularity was due to decisions that later proved to be correct. [/QUOTE] Yes, well, save the 28% remnant who support him now, no one, least of all historians, will ever say that about W. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-gwbs-legacy-is-he-one-of-the-worst-potus-ever-will-historians-redeem-him/444711/125 "2008-04-14T18:50:19Z")
What about when documentation surfaces in 2057 that Bush had to blow the levies in New Orleans? The flooding destroyed the Earth side of the gate and stopped flat the pending Mi-Go invasion. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-gwbs-legacy-is-he-one-of-the-worst-potus-ever-will-historians-redeem-him/444711/126 "2008-04-14T21:53:29Z")
> [@](#): > > Yes, well, save the 28% remnant who support him now, no one, least of all historians, will ever say that about W. I agree. I have a hard time conceiving of how any of Bush’s decisions are going to turn out to look better in the long run then they do now. His response to the 9/11 attacks was fumbling. Invading Iraq is turning into Vietnam II. His economic policies have been bad all along. His penchant for secrecy and twisting the law will probably take decades to undo. His foreign policy record has probably been the worst of any President’s. My prediction is that Bush’s reputation hasn’t bottomed out yet. I think a lot of his lingering suport is due to loyalty to a sitting president. Once he’s out of office and the public can start comparing his performance to how a new president deals with similar problems, the comparison is going to start looking real bad for Bush. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-gwbs-legacy-is-he-one-of-the-worst-potus-ever-will-historians-redeem-him/444711/127 "2008-04-14T22:39:51Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Yes, well, save the 28% remnant who support him now, **no one, least of all historians, will ever say that about W.** [/QUOTE] Why do you say that? Truman got us into a war that Americans pretty much didn’t support, used nuclear weapons, fired an American war hero, tried to nationalize the steel industry without a single piece of law to justify his actions, spent billions on foreign aid, and failed to challenge Stalin before he consolidated Soviet hegemony in Eastern Europe. Plus, as I have often said my opinion, Truman was not even as smart as George Bush. And yet, somehow all of that turned out kind of okay, give or take some disagreements here and there. If Truman’s decisions can be rehabilitated, I just don’t see how one can say that Bush’s cannot. (Although I still don’t think they will.) ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-gwbs-legacy-is-he-one-of-the-worst-potus-ever-will-historians-redeem-him/444711/128 "2008-04-14T22:41:40Z")
[QUOTE=astro] At this point, even as registered Republican, I have to admit it seems GW Bush is likely to be regarded as one of the worst US President’s ever, but people thought the same of Nixon, and historians have revised his legacy to the point that some regard him as personally flawed, but a foreign policy wizard, and overall a pretty decent President policy wise. Is George W. Bush going to be redeemed? What are the chances? [/QUOTE] Redeemed from what? The only thing that he has severely screwed the pooch on is his failure to secure the border. Compared to Clinton, he’s a bloody saint. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-gwbs-legacy-is-he-one-of-the-worst-potus-ever-will-historians-redeem-him/444711/129 "2008-04-14T22:47:39Z")
[QUOTE=Ravenman] Why do you say that? [/QUOTE] Because we have no reason to hope any of W’s decisions that are unpopular now will later prove to be correct. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-gwbs-legacy-is-he-one-of-the-worst-potus-ever-will-historians-redeem-him/444711/130 "2008-04-14T22:51:14Z")
[QUOTE=Clothahump] Redeemed from what? The only thing that he has severely screwed the pooch on is his failure to secure the border. Compared to Clinton, he’s a bloody saint. [/QUOTE] So… you don’t look at the decision to got to war with Iraq, and the insane morass it has created for the US as rising to the level of intensive canine fornication? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2008, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-gwbs-legacy-is-he-one-of-the-worst-potus-ever-will-historians-redeem-him/444711/131 "2008-04-15T02:31:05Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Yes, well, save the 28% remnant who support him now, no one, least of all historians, will ever say that about W. [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > Because we have no reason to hope any of W’s decisions that are unpopular now will later prove to be correct. The funny thing is that no decent historian would ever say what you just did. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2008, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-gwbs-legacy-is-he-one-of-the-worst-potus-ever-will-historians-redeem-him/444711/132 "2008-04-15T11:38:16Z")
[QUOTE=Ravenman] The funny thing is that no decent historian would ever say what you just did. [/QUOTE] [shrug] Historians do not predict the future. But we must, in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2008, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-gwbs-legacy-is-he-one-of-the-worst-potus-ever-will-historians-redeem-him/444711/133 "2008-04-15T19:54:01Z")
[QUOTE=astro] So… you don’t look at the decision to got to war with Iraq, and the insane morass it has created for the US as rising to the level of intensive canine fornication? [/QUOTE] Don’t bother, **astro.** This is [**Clothahump.**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=414639) He can’t debate. He doesn’t seem to understand what a debate **is.** He only ever shows up to give us all a chance to laugh at him. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2008, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-gwbs-legacy-is-he-one-of-the-worst-potus-ever-will-historians-redeem-him/444711/134 "2008-04-15T22:13:53Z")
You could make a long list of things boy George did the last 7 years. It has been repulsive. But historians will key on 2 things. A stupid war that has bankrupted the country and destroyed the army is a big one. But he set up a financial division in the country that is inexcusable. He did everything from day one to make the wealthy into a new elitist class,above the people and beyond the law. The middleclass and the poor have been looted. America has become like an old fashioned European Royalty ,governed for the wealthy at the expense of the poor. That is a philosophical difference as well as a financial difference. He has remade the country into something new and dangerous. The world distrusts. us fears us and rejoices in its failures. We are alone now. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-gwbs-legacy-is-he-one-of-the-worst-potus-ever-will-historians-redeem-him/444711/135 "2008-04-16T00:28:11Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] You could make a long list of things boy George did the last 7 years. It has been repulsive. But historians will key on 2 things. A stupid war that has bankrupted the country and destroyed the army is a big one. But he set up a financial division in the country that is inexcusable. He did everything from day one to make the wealthy into a new elitist class,above the people and beyond the law. The middleclass and the poor have been looted. America has become like an old fashioned European Royalty ,governed for the wealthy at the expense of the poor. That is a philosophical difference as well as a financial difference. He has remade the country into something new and dangerous. The world distrusts. us fears us and rejoices in its failures. We are alone now. [/QUOTE] Succinct and on point. Well put. Would that the Bush apologists on Board would do the same. Of course, I realize that’s asking for the impossible unless you make your own reality… ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-gwbs-legacy-is-he-one-of-the-worst-potus-ever-will-historians-redeem-him/444711/136 "2008-04-16T01:20:58Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] Succinct and on point. Well put. [/QUOTE] You’ve jumped the shark Red… -XT ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-gwbs-legacy-is-he-one-of-the-worst-potus-ever-will-historians-redeem-him/444711/137 "2008-04-16T05:39:22Z")
Awww, gee, **XT** , you know how much **Red Furry** craves your approval and good opinion, he’ll be crying himself to sleep tonight, for sure. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-gwbs-legacy-is-he-one-of-the-worst-potus-ever-will-historians-redeem-him/444711/138 "2008-04-16T13:32:45Z")
Oh, to be sure… (But anyone thinking Gonzo’s posts are ‘Succinct and on point’ has not only jumped that shark, but gotten down and dirty with that bad boy as well. Just sayin…) -XT ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-gwbs-legacy-is-he-one-of-the-worst-potus-ever-will-historians-redeem-him/444711/139 "2008-04-16T14:48:26Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] He has remade the country into something new and dangerous. [/QUOTE] But not, at least, in a systemic, institutional sense. Nothing the next admin can’t roll back. Unlike the war, which is a quagmire. ---
**Author:** ![TV\_time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f17d59/32.png) [@TV\_time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TV_time)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-gwbs-legacy-is-he-one-of-the-worst-potus-ever-will-historians-redeem-him/444711/140 "2008-04-16T16:06:23Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] A lot of Truman’s unpopularity was due to decisions that later proved to be correct. He integrated the armed forces, he funded the Marshall Plan to rebuild Europe after WWII, he didn’t send troops into China to fight against Mao, he fired MacArthur for disobeying orders, he committed the United States to NATO, he didn’t invade East Germany during the Berlin Blockade - all of these decisions were controversial at the time they were made and had bitter opponents who forecast disaster would result. Another factor was that Truman’s administration ended around the time the Red Scare was at its peak. People like McCarthy and Nixon and Eisenhower said that Truman wasn’t doing enough to root out Communist influence in the United States. Ironically, most people now feel that the actions Truman did take went too far in the opposite direction. [/QUOTE] So we can look for opinions to turn about Bush because of his stands on…um, on…um…nope, I got nothin’. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-gwbs-legacy-is-he-one-of-the-worst-potus-ever-will-historians-redeem-him/444711.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-gwbs-legacy-is-he-one-of-the-worst-potus-ever-will-historians-redeem-him/444711.md?page=8)