# Re I'm the Mary & you're the Rhoda. Was Rhoda really all that unattractive? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 30, 2014, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-im-the-mary-youre-the-rhoda-was-rhoda-really-all-that-unattractive/697009 "2014-08-30T21:39:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![7e42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/7/51bf81/32.png) [@7e42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/7e42)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-im-the-mary-youre-the-rhoda-was-rhoda-really-all-that-unattractive/697009/41 "2014-08-31T19:12:31Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > What does that mean? 😕 That Mork and Mindy was a spinofff ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-im-the-mary-youre-the-rhoda-was-rhoda-really-all-that-unattractive/697009/42 "2014-08-31T21:43:49Z")
If you want to count it, _All in the Family’s_ final spin-off was the very short lived [704 Hauser](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/704_Hauser), which aired in 1994. It was set in the Bunker’s old house, now occupied by a black family. John Amos played the father, and in a reversal of the _All in the Family_ dynamic, he had a conservative son who he was always arguing with. According to wikipedia, it had only 6 episodes, one of which was never aired. Memorable, if that’s the word, largely for an early appearance of Maura Tierney. As for MTM, I admit I’ve never been able to see Rhoda’s supposed “pudginess” in the early episodes. I know that the episode “Rhoda the Beautiful,” where she loses a bunch of weight and wins the beauty contest, was evidently based on Valerie Harper’s actual weight loss. But to me, Rhoda always looked just the same before and after her “losing weight.” And I would have preferred Rhoda over Mary (like I would have had a shot with either one!), largely based on the fact that she just seemed cooler, and like she would be more fun to hang out with. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-im-the-mary-youre-the-rhoda-was-rhoda-really-all-that-unattractive/697009/43 "2014-09-01T01:11:06Z")
> [@7e42](#): > > That Mork and Mindy was a spinofff The difference between a spin-off (I can’t believe I’m having this conversation) is that a back-door pilot is for a series that is already planned, and inserts never-before-seen characters into an existing series for a single episode. The “Kelly’s Kids” ep. of the _Brady Bunch_ is probably the best-known example, but the episode “Behave” of _Law & Order: SVU_ that introduced the characters for _L&O: LA_ is a recent example. Mork was not a regular character on _Happy Days_. He appears once, and the ending sets up the premise of _Mork and Mindy_. It’s a back-door pilot. Now, it is possible to have both. When the housekeeper on That show Gary Coleman and Todd Bridges did, cripes-- _Diff’rent Strokes_, yeah, with the apostrophe and all-- spun off into her own series, there was a back-door pilot with a _Diff’rent Strokes_ ep. (I hated that show, but my brother liked it) set at the school, and introducing all the characters. Back to MTM and Rhoda: Valerie Harper used to get dressed in a lot of baggy clothes; once she was dressed in tailored clothes, she had magically “lost weight.” IIRC, this happened right before the spin off. A lot of things happened right before the spin off that had her shedding her nebbishkeit, preparing to take on the “Mary” role on her own show, while Julie Kavner would be the nebbisher sidekick. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-im-the-mary-youre-the-rhoda-was-rhoda-really-all-that-unattractive/697009/44 "2014-09-01T04:32:04Z")
> [@Rodgers01](#): > > Nitpick: Laura danced once or twice on the Alan Brady Show over the course of the series, but it was never a regular thing. She was a former USO dancer, which is how she met Rob. Nitpick: The producers had Rob, Laura, Buddy, and Sally “doing shows” whenever they could work it into the script. It could happen at a cocktail party, a resort in the Borscht Belt, the Petries’ living room, just about anywhere. (Sometimes it was like watching an old Judy Garland–Mickey Rooney movie: “Hey, I know! Let’s put on a show to help these guys out!”) Check out **this clip** ; brownie points if you can identify the guy on the drum! [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ANvMAyXuQpI/hqdefault.jpg?sqp=-oaymwEmCOADEOgC8quKqQMa8AEB-AG-AoAC8AGKAgwIABABGGIgYihiMA8=&rs=AOn4CLDE6B88eiErLnmcqEHk4sE4Pu5e2A "Laura Petrie Dick Van Dyke Show") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANvMAyXuQpI) ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-im-the-mary-youre-the-rhoda-was-rhoda-really-all-that-unattractive/697009/45 "2014-09-01T04:44:13Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Check out **this clip** ; brownie points if you can identify the guy on the drum! Bob CraneNot too difficult to recognize. But Mary Tyler Moore doing calypso; just doesn’t quite work, does it? ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-im-the-mary-youre-the-rhoda-was-rhoda-really-all-that-unattractive/697009/46 "2014-09-01T04:49:27Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > But Mary Tyler Moore doing calypso; just doesn’t quite work, does it? Calypso was very _au courant_ back then, thanks to the popularity of Harry Belafonte. Even the original theme song for _ **Gilligan’s Island** _, heard on the unaired pilot, was a calypso number: They made fun of the "Let's put on a show!" trope on \*\*\*MTM\*\*\*; this is one of my favorite episodes in the series: https://www.youtube.com/embed/iodqjiv0BPk?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque&list=PLodjTbu6gX6Cnz7Y9ph59f3uJZHBLv9k2&start=600 ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-im-the-mary-youre-the-rhoda-was-rhoda-really-all-that-unattractive/697009/47 "2014-09-01T07:23:16Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > But Mary Tyler Moore doing calypso; just doesn’t quite work, does it? I think it’s a case of “presentism.” It come across to us, in 2014 as a racial impersonation, with her fake accent and all, and we lump it in with Mickey Rooney in _Breakfast at Tiffany’s_, but really, it’s not that different from an American doing a fake British accent when singing a Beatles’ song, or a Northerner using a fake Southern accent to sing “Georgia on my Mind.” But even knowing that, I cringe too. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-im-the-mary-youre-the-rhoda-was-rhoda-really-all-that-unattractive/697009/48 "2014-09-01T10:12:41Z")
> [@Ellis\_Aponte\_Jr](#): > > It’s worth noting that although the Rhoda character is definitely Jewish, Valerie Harper is not. Her ancestry is “English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh, and French” and she was raised Catholic. She claims to have based the accent of Rhoda on a Jewish friend of hers. And this is my “You Learn Something Every Day”. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-im-the-mary-youre-the-rhoda-was-rhoda-really-all-that-unattractive/697009/49 "2014-09-01T10:37:53Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > And this is my “You Learn Something Every Day”. She’s not the first goy to play a Jew, and I think she did a great job. So Valerie Harper wasn’t Jewish? you believed Rhoda was, and that was all that mattered. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-im-the-mary-youre-the-rhoda-was-rhoda-really-all-that-unattractive/697009/50 "2014-09-01T12:47:21Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > I think it’s a case of “presentism.” It come across to us, in 2014 as a racial impersonation, with her fake accent and all, and we lump it in with Mickey Rooney in _Breakfast at Tiffany’s_, but really, it’s not that different from an American doing a fake British accent when singing a Beatles’ song, or a Northerner using a fake Southern accent to sing “Georgia on my Mind.” But even knowing that, I cringe too. I don’t have an offended (for lack of a better term) reaction, I just think “why would you listen to this when there’s a real Harry Belafonte out there?” ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-im-the-mary-youre-the-rhoda-was-rhoda-really-all-that-unattractive/697009/51 "2014-09-01T19:50:40Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > Watching the series, in the late 90s, I was amazed by how spooky Mary looked in the series. Not the hot babe of the Dick Van Dyke Show, not even a milfy-version of the same-more of a sunburned, haggard reflection of what had been. I think that she was living off of her DVDS reputation, and that, along with her acting talent, and the shows writers, made her ‘seem’ more attractive than Rhoda. Mary Tyler Moore’s looks changed pretty dramatically over the years of the Mary Tyler Moore Show. She went from looking cute and young to looking slightly haggard and middle-aged within the space of maybe 5 years on that show. No doubt the diabetes contributed, but MTM was also hitting the bottle really hard at that time, and was also very skinny - two things that tend to prematurely age people. [Mary Tyler Moore in Season 1](http://www.reduxflix.com/uploads/thumbs/c609a9a2a-1.jpg) [Mary Tyler Moore in Season 3](http://www.reduxflix.com/uploads/thumbs/86b2bc88e-1.jpg) [Mary Tyler Moore - Season 5](http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTUzNzg2MDE1NV5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTgwMzgzMTM0MjE@._V1_SY317_CR104,0,214,317_AL_.jpg) [Mary Tyler Moore - Season 7](https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTBLcWGPE78nZ7NrT1m1qK7zCiKTNwOr-phcyRotoCXQXIb9d0AwA) She’s not horrible to look at or anything - it just looks like she’s aged about 15 years during those seven seasons. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-im-the-mary-youre-the-rhoda-was-rhoda-really-all-that-unattractive/697009/52 "2014-09-01T20:15:58Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Mary Tyler Moore’s looks changed pretty dramatically over the years of the Mary Tyler Moore Show. She went from looking cute and young to looking slightly haggard and middle-aged within the space of maybe 5 years on that show. > > [links snipped] > > No doubt the diabetes contributed, but MTM was also hitting the bottle really hard at that time, and was also very skinny - two things that tend to prematurely age people. > > She’s not horrible to look at or anything - it just looks like she’s aged about 15 years during those seven seasons. She was probably skinny because of the way diabetes was managed then-- she wasn’t so skinny on _The DvD_ show. But she also, as Rhoda put in when either she guested on _The MTM Show_, or MTM guested on _Rhoda_, I don’t remember which, that MTM “managed to gain weight only in erogenous zones,” so I wonder if she had breast implants. And then I wonder if she had other work as well. A face lift, whether or not it succeeds in making you look younger, can change the shape of your face. Also, diabetes all by itself can age you, or at least in the 70s it did. Because of glucometers, and insulins that act at different speeds to better mimic what the pancreas does, diabetes is much more easy to manage now than it was in the 70s. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-im-the-mary-youre-the-rhoda-was-rhoda-really-all-that-unattractive/697009/53 "2014-09-01T21:52:24Z")
MTM was not exactly flat chested even when young. When she was carrying a little more weight she looked quite well endowed: [Young Mary Tyler Moore](http://www.classictvbeauties.com/mary_tyler_moore_6.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-im-the-mary-youre-the-rhoda-was-rhoda-really-all-that-unattractive/697009/54 "2014-09-01T23:22:17Z")
That wasn’t my point. At the beginning of _The MTM Show_, she was thinner than she had been on _DvD_ and smaller chested, which one would expect. At some point, she got more bosomy, without seeming to gain weight anywhere else. I am not complaining about her looks. She was awfully thin on MTM, and IMO, looked better (ie, on DvD) when she wasn’t almost anorectic thin, but I think her thinness just had to do with the way diabetes was managed. Home glucometers didn’t exist until the 1980s, so people had to stick to a rigid diet, take their shots by the clock, and cross their fingers. If they felt that something was wrong, they had to go to the doctor or the ER for a blood glucose test. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-im-the-mary-youre-the-rhoda-was-rhoda-really-all-that-unattractive/697009/55 "2014-09-02T02:51:33Z")
The clothes they both wore were also really ugly. I’m always amused at how they’re just so utterly unflattering when I watch the show. Then men look almost as bad in the polyester stuff. I always wind up feeling bad for MTM. She has great talent but a nasty disease, failed marriages and an only child who killed himself. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-im-the-mary-youre-the-rhoda-was-rhoda-really-all-that-unattractive/697009/56 "2014-09-02T11:25:35Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > The clothes they both wore were also really ugly. I’m always amused at how they’re just so utterly unflattering when I watch the show. Then men look almost as bad in the polyester stuff. This. GQ was promoting white plastic buttons on navy blazers as the Next Big Thing, and I looked at the photo and thought “Jesus, that looks like something Mary Richards would’ve worn around Season Six!” ---
**Author:** ![DonLogan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@DonLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DonLogan)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-im-the-mary-youre-the-rhoda-was-rhoda-really-all-that-unattractive/697009/57 "2014-09-02T19:56:47Z")
I’m gonna have to go ahead and disagree with Lou Grant and say that at any given time, Rhoda was probably the one who had spunk. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-im-the-mary-youre-the-rhoda-was-rhoda-really-all-that-unattractive/697009/58 "2014-09-02T23:56:58Z")
But he hates spunk, and he didn’t like Rhoda much. Billie Newman had spunk, but you could tell she was trying to suppress it. Of course, Lou had mellowed by then. He even dated that police officer Susan Sherman (if they’d been giving out awards for single ep. performances back then, Frances McCain would have won one), who had more spunk than all of them together. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-im-the-mary-youre-the-rhoda-was-rhoda-really-all-that-unattractive/697009/59 "2014-09-02T23:59:50Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > But he hates spunk, and he didn’t like Rhoda much. Eh? 😕 He never had much reason to interact with Rhoda, but he never seemed to bear her any animosity. At one point, he even hired her to redecorate his house (and felt guilty because he hated the results). ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2014, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-im-the-mary-youre-the-rhoda-was-rhoda-really-all-that-unattractive/697009/60 "2014-09-03T12:28:53Z")
Yes, to the best of my memory, Lou and Rhoda got along fine. There was even an episode (“Lou’s Second Date”) where they were hanging out together so often that everyone assumed they were dating. And I note that Rhoda, unlike Mary, always called him “Lou.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-im-the-mary-youre-the-rhoda-was-rhoda-really-all-that-unattractive/697009.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-im-the-mary-youre-the-rhoda-was-rhoda-really-all-that-unattractive/697009.md?page=4)