# Re:Is there a gender neutral substitute for his or her **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [May 5, 2012, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/620943 "2012-05-05T01:31:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Powers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Powers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powers)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/620943/21 "2012-05-15T15:04:08Z")
> [@Cheryl44](#): > > In English the masculine forms are also neuter. He/him/his can refer to a person even if the gender of the person is unknown. That hasn’t been true for practical purposes for about forty years. (And I have a suspicion that it wasn’t true before WWI either, making it a fairly short-lived phenomenon in the history of the language.) Good try though! Powers &8^] ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/620943/22 "2012-05-15T18:50:28Z")
It’s not particularly difficult to find examples of epicene _he_ going back to Middle English. (For what it’s worth, _man_ is definitely neutral. Most languages have two separate words for man-as-opposed-to-beast and man-as-opposed-to-woman (Latin _homo_ and _vir_, for example, or Greek _ἄνθρωπος_ and _ἀνήρ_), but, for unclear reasons, the English word for man-as-opposed-to-woman, _wer_, fell out of use, except as fossilized in _werewolf_ and _weregild_, and _man_ got stuck with double duty.) ---
**Author:** ![leehenmd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@leehenmd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leehenmd)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/620943/23 "2012-05-15T20:21:59Z")
Does anyone else remember the short-lived word “s/he”? I thought it was elegant for its brevity. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/620943/24 "2012-05-16T03:19:04Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And they’re pretty rare, but there are some people who don’t regard themselves as having a gender at all. Surely they’d have even more stake in the matter than transgendered people? It depends. Transgender (no -ed, please, it’s not a verb) folks can fall anywhere on the gender spectrum though _most_ (not all) do identify with one of the binary genders, that is, male or female, and therefore he/him, she/her is appropriate. Then some transgender folks are genderqueer, agender, bigender or gender liminal and prefer neutral pronouns, which could be zie (or ze)/hir or ey/eir or they/their, and I know one person who prefers ou. If you’re not sure, the best thing to do is ask. As for a blanket substitute, there is really, really nothing wrong with the singular they. Absolutely nothing. And as for the example in the OP, if you really can’t see why it’s problematic to center a woman’s identity not on herself but on her relationship with someone else, especially a man, I’m not sure what to tell you. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/620943/25 "2012-05-16T04:57:00Z")
I’ve always thought that [ul] [li]‘se’ for she/he (pronounced ‘see’)[/li][li]‘herm’ for her/him (pronounced like it’s spelled, rhymes with ‘perm’)[/li][li]‘hirs’ for hers/his (pronounced like ‘hears’ but with a short ‘i’ like in ‘bit’) [/li][/ul] would work well, and be quite easy to transition to Sample sentence: “Se went to the house and polished hirs shoes. That’s when I saw herm” It does look a bit strange when you see it written 🙂 It should become less strange the more it is used, I assume. ---
**Author:** ![Powers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Powers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powers)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/620943/26 "2012-05-17T00:09:22Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > Transgender (no -ed, please, it’s not a verb) What does not being a verb have to do with anything? “Gender” isn’t a verb, yet the correct adjectival form is “gendered”. Perhaps you meant “it’s already an adjective”. > [@](#): > > As for a blanket substitute, there is really, really nothing wrong with the singular they. Absolutely nothing. I realize the second-person plural has already been adapted to singular use (requiring the subsequent invention of new plural forms, sadly), but we maintain the singular/plural distinction in the first and third persons for quite good reasons. Powers &8^] ---
**Author:** ![Powers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Powers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powers)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/620943/27 "2012-05-17T00:11:36Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > Sample sentence: “Se went to the house and polished hirs shoes. That’s when I saw herm” The problem with your proposed possessive and objective pronouns is that certain adjacent words will make them sound like the feminine form (“her shoes” versus “hirs shoes” will not be distinguishable in most American accents). Powers &8^] ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/620943/28 "2012-05-17T18:37:49Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > Transgender (no -ed, please, it’s not a verb) “Gender” is indeed a verb. Next time, look it up. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/620943/29 "2012-05-17T20:32:13Z")
The most commonly cited definitions of “gender” make it a noun. > **[gender](https://www.thefreedictionary.com/gender)** > > Definition, Synonyms, Translations of gender by The Free Dictionary Only one def makes it a verb, “to engender”. The definition of “engender” does not mention “gender”. This seems to be a misappropriation because the word seems like part of the second word, therefore it means the same thing. Regardless, “transgender” is the word cited by **tumbleddown** , and it is not a verb. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/620943/30 "2012-05-18T18:55:28Z")
Oh, [thefreedictionary.com](http://thefreedictionary.com) doesn’t list a word, well, _that’s_ certainly crushed my argument. I mean, [thefreedictionary.com](http://thefreedictionary.com), what greater authority could possibly be named? ---
**Author:** ![Powers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Powers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powers)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/620943/31 "2012-05-18T19:11:58Z")
> [@John\_W.Kennedy](#): > > Oh, [thefreedictionary.com](http://thefreedictionary.com) doesn’t list a word, well, _that’s_ certainly crushed my argument. I mean, [thefreedictionary.com](http://thefreedictionary.com), what greater authority could possibly be named? Merriam-Wesbter agrees. How many more dictionaries do you want us to check? Regardless, my point stands. The word “gendered” is derived from the noun “gender”, since it means “possessing _a gender_”. It’s a perfectly valid adjectival form, so the objection to “transgendered” strikes me as spurious, as it a parallel construction. Powers &8^] ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/620943/32 "2012-05-18T19:38:05Z")
Sometimes really intelligent people get bogged down in the meaning of words. I wonder if this is an inbuilt weakness of intelligent conversation. It happens when I interact with my ‘meatspace’ friends as well as here. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/620943/33 "2012-05-20T02:53:09Z")
> [@John\_W.Kennedy](#): > > Oh, [thefreedictionary.com](http://thefreedictionary.com) doesn’t list a word, well, _that’s_ certainly crushed my argument. I mean, [thefreedictionary.com](http://thefreedictionary.com), what greater authority could possibly be named? I did a google search, and picked one. How many should I list? Perhaps you should provide justification that “gender” is a verb, instead. It is _your_ claim. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/620943/34 "2012-05-20T22:30:31Z")
> [@Powers](#): > > Merriam-Wesbter agrees. How many more dictionaries do you want us to check? If you want to argue that a lexeme does _not_ exist in English, there is only the _Oxford English Dictionary_—but the staff of the OED expressly call it an abuse to do so. One can prove that a word _does_ exist, but not that it does not, apart from the handful of words positively known to be spurious. (And even that is risky; \*_pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis_ is, and obviously is, complete rubbish, but, like _normalcy_, has acquired a Frankenstein-like life of its own.) > [@Powers](#): > > Regardless, my point stands. The word “gendered” is derived from the noun “gender”, since it means “possessing _a gender_”. It’s a perfectly valid adjectival form, so the objection to “transgendered” strikes me as spurious, as it a parallel construction. That’s quite true. “Gender” doesn’t need to be a verb for “gendered” and “transgendered” to be valid. Nonetheless, “gender” is a verb. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/620943/35 "2012-05-20T23:08:38Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > . . . or if you prefer a little more formal, “his female neighbor”. That would be OK if he had only one female neighbour. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/620943/36 "2012-05-21T21:13:59Z")
“His neighbor’s wife…” What if he has more than one married neighbor? Why is it assumed a man’s neighbor is a male? I disagree it is more natural to focus on the family of the victim and not the victim. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/620943/37 "2012-05-29T01:23:48Z")
I visited my uber-P.C. alma mater, Oberlin College, over the weekend and noticed that the student newspaper intermittently used “ze” for he/she, and “zir” for his/her. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/620943.md?page=1)