Re: Is Time Travel Possible?

Well, it was for me. Simply carving it up in quotes meant I could actually read it. The additional general commentary was at least interesting/entertaining. So thanks for putting your sanity on the line for the rest of us.

What I have gotten from the larger thread is that we can draw boundaries around our time traveling system, and not violate any of the currently understood laws. I must be misremembering my Lorentz stuff from a decade ago and supposing that a backwards-in-time inertial frame would violate it and with it conservation.

Wasn’t there something about antiparticles being time reversed particles? It would really suck to create a time machine and then annihilate yourself the first time you turn it on for a quick trip to pay your phone bill on time.

Interesting - I wasn’t aware that there was any indication that if you defined the system to be the entire universe that conservation doesn’t hold. I’m assuming you aren’t talking about converting mass to energy or qualifying the energy in question as “usable” energy. An overview or a link would be very welcome - but that may be drifting OT.

Every Doper asks himself or herself that… from time to time.

And will keep doing so while continuing to keep answering.

That future is entirely predictable even if indeterminate. :wink:

I disagree.
The universe is a closed system. If it interacts in some way with something outside of it, then that becomes part of the universe. Taking matter forward or back in time deletes or adds matter to that time of the universe.

There are actually references to time being the same from time to time, by the conservation laws holding.

http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Conservation_of_energy.html

The scary part is that any machine which could allow you to remotely view what happened at the OK Corral 130 years ago would also allow you to remotely view what happened in your neighbor’s bedroom 130 milliseconds ago. Goodbye privacy.

Well, Lost had flashbacks, flash forwards, and flash-sideways :slight_smile:

Which were first thought to be a second timeline/universe but was later revealed to actually be the afterlife

There’s no causality loop problem. That’s just an artifact of the real problem, which is not being clear about what mechanism of time travel is being used. If you have a clear mechanism (is it more like teleportation, timeline splitting, or rewinding, is there metatime, etc), then you can simply create a simple simulation to see what happens.

Mass is conserved over all of space time. You may add mass to a particular time, but then you are deleting it from another time, and the over all mass-time is conserved. The point being, conservation is not about tallying, it is about spontaneous existence. The matter is being moved or transformed, not created.

Doesn’t seem true if time-travel to the past is possible. Consider:

**2014 matter in universe: **
ONE: The Great Unwashed, ONE: Everything Else

The Great Unwashed hops into time-machine and heads for 2013…

*revised 2014 matter in universe: **
TWO: The Great Unwashed
, ONE: Everything Else

  • probably arguing with each other

The extra 2013 The Great Unwashed came from 2014, he was not created out of nothing. That is what the conservation law states.

Now a time teleportation system may run into those kinds of problems - where does the matter that makes up that The Great Unwashed come from? Is it dragged through the teleport, or extracted from local sources and reformed? That could pose tricky problems for the causality loop.

If “backward through time equals antimatter”, then what you would see is a stupendous virtual particle pair production: Two extra copies of you would suddenly appear, one made of matter and the other made of antimatter. The one made of antimatter would be experiencing time backward and eventually it would meet you at the time machine where he and you would disappear, leaving the extra matter (the future you) to carry on.

Time isn’t a steady ticking clock. It’s the way space interacts with relativity. Each and every one of us is experiencing time a bit differently.

Imagine driving a car. According to relativity, you’re compressing time that sits in front of you. At a short distance and slow speed, you don’t really witness anything strange. Your watching isn’t ticking noticeably slower than those on the sidewalk. You don’t notice objects elongating as you pass them, and you have don’t see the future, past and present all being compressed together on your sides.

However, this effect becomes larger the farther out you go. Let’s say you look through your windshield and notice some distant planet in a distant solar system in a distant galaxy that’s a few thousand light years away. You are in the same time plane (I can’t think of a better term), as that planet is experiencing 200 years in the future. Make a U-Turn, and you’ve traveled 200 years in the past on that planet.

Of course, you can’t call your bookie, make a bet on the outcome of some future game on that planet, and win big. The light from that planet reaching the Earth is several thousands years old. The best you can do is see the light as it came from the star a mere 1800 years ago by driving towards it instead of 2000 years ago by standing still. Due to the speed of light, you are unable to actually affect the past or future on that distant planet.

It might actually be possible to time travel. There’s no rule that really prevents it, but I suspect that somehow the limit on how fast light can travel will prevent us from killing our own grandpa or going back in time to warn yourself not to wear that lime green jacket to your senior prom.

If time travel is possible, someone will do it. This will upset the timeline from the point of intervention onward. If the distrupted timeline still contains the invention of time travel, time travel will happen again, disrupting the timeline again. This will happen over and over until a timeline forms which is stable against temporal disruption: a universe with a timeline in which time travel is impossible.

So any timeline stable enough to consider the existence of time travel is a universe in which time travel is impossible.

See also the Novikov Self-Consistency Principle

This is a subject I spend a LOT of time studying - kind of an obsession of mine.

  1. Travelling faster than light does not make you go backwards in time. The entire idea comes from Lorentzian transforms - time and length shrinks, mass grows.

t’ = t * sqrt(1 - v^2/c^2)

As your velocity (v) approaches the speed of light (c), v squared approaches c squared and the ratio approaches 1. One minus one is zero. Square root (sqrt) of zero is zero and local time times zero is zero relative time.

Simple really - until you go FASTER than the speed of light. Then things get… mm… imaginary.

Then the v squared over c squared part is MORE than one, and one minus it becomes a negative number (which is why people keep thinking this means ‘time goes backwards’) except they forget the ‘square root’ part… and there is no square root of a negative number. Which means the equation doesn’t say ‘going faster than the speed of light means going backwards in time’ - it means ‘you can’t do that’.

Consider length - which is governed by the same equation. This interpretation of Lorentz’ equations would imply that if you’re going faster than the speed of light, you’d have a negative length, which is literally meaningless.

  1. The Thorne time machine doesn’t work. The original idea for this came out of a phone call from Carl Sagan to Kip Thorne asking for help in the writing of the book Contact. Thorne had grad student work out the math and to their surprise, they realised that you could, in theory, make a time machine. Cecil’s description of it was more or less right - but, ended a little to soon. Sometime later, they ran the numbers again and realised there’s a problem: the amount of radiation created in the wormhole being held open would basically be so huge that anything, even an atom, trying to pass through would be wiped out.

There’s also a bigger issue - moving one end of the wormhole doesn’t actually make it stick in time - it slows the clocks. It’s a subtle but important distinction. Imagine you have a spaceship and it’s travelling to Alpha Centauri (around 4.2 light years away) and you’re doing .5c (half the speed of light). Plugging that into the equation above and you get: .866 which means time is slowed to 86.6% of the time experienced by someone ‘at rest’. Since you’re going 1/2 the speed of light - it takes you 8.4 years to get to Alpha Centauri and indeed - that’s exactly how long it will take… but by your clock, only 7.2 years will have passed. They open up your ship, look inside and to them, you’re in the ‘past’ - except you’re not. You’re there now - with clocks that are wrong.

If you built a Thorne time machine, you wouldn’t go back into the past, you’d just see the local clocks get further and further off as you travel down the wormhole. The time at the other end would be the time you started plus transit time.

  1. Baryon numbers. This one is going to sound weird - but when the universe was created in the big bang, a certain number of particles (quarks) were created. Most of them were annihilated into photons in the first second - but, for reasons we don’t entirely understand yet, a little bit survived - which is us. But from that moment on, you cannot create new matter out of energy without maintaining the baryon number - it’s like bookkeeping for the universe.

If you went into the past, you’d change the baryon number here and in the past. Which isn’t permitted.

  1. Temporal asymmetry. For a long time, physicists were sure time was symmetric - that anything that happens forward in time can be run backwards. Except we now know that’s wrong. B and K mesons have decay modes which are NOT symmetric - they can only work one way - forwards. This strongly suggests that the universe has a ‘time handedness’.

Interestingly, we also used to believe that the universe couldn’t tell the difference between matter and antimatter until we discovered that weak interactions can tell them apart. Neutrinos also have a ‘handedness’ which break symmetry.

  1. Supertime. If you can travel in time - you have to travel IN some additional time axis. The action of movement implies a temporal axis. Movement is distance over time… and in this case, the distance IS time, so you need time over time… they can’t be the same time axis, so we’d need another time axis.

There’s no evidence such a thing exists.

  1. Information theory. Travelling in time - especially backwards in time - violates information theory and causality. It creates a situation where the creation of information is the information itself (consider: invent something - then go back into the past before you invent it and tell yourself how to invent it… where did the information come from?)

I can actually give you a ton more reasons time travel is impossible, but I’ll give you one last thing to think about. It’s not an argument for or against time travel, rather a caution.

To travel into the past or into the future - there’s an assumption that there’s somewhere to travel to. If the past exists in a concrete sense then it’s either immutable and fixed because it’s happened, or it’s variable. If it’s variable, then quantum mechanics would cause it to change continuously - yet reality seems pretty stable, which suggests it’s immutable… but if it is - then the same has to be true for the future (because for any point in the future - everything before it is the past and has to comply with the previous statement).

Now the scary part. If it’s immutable - then we have no free will. Everything we do is predetermined… even me writing this post. I’m not doing it because I choose to - I do it because this is what is supposed to happen right now. Even me thinking I have a choice as to what’s supposed to happen isn’t my decision - it’s what’s written into the universe at this point in the space time continuum.

So… be careful what you wish for. :slight_smile:

Some of those are circular.

What about Tipler’s rotating cylinders?

If you are receiving this notice, as of Wednesday last (your local temporal hack), temporal displacement in any form is no longer available for your time line. Please see your local cable provider to determine if temporal displacement other than standard forward linear sequencing will be made available in your area at a later date.

Modifying your local base sub-nuclear frequency may allow you access to nearby realities having random, non-sequential, accelerated, decelerated, reversed, parallel, serial, self-intersecting, concurrent, recurrent, iterative, repetitive, multi-, poly-, non- and/or static temporal flows as well as formats not mentioned here. Be aware that some instances of these may preclude access to any or all others once instantiated.

Have a nice day (should such restrictions apply to your frame of reference. Please be advised that this notice absolves the poster of any undesirable effects that may be experienced in any other continuities. Also, be aware that local gravitational forces and universal laws will be enforced at all times, whether or not perceptible, comprehensible, or measurable.

Nothing having to do with the speed of light in a vacuum (or grape jam), has anything to do with time travel. It may be a cute reference speed, but that is all it is.

Why would anyone think that time is linear? Does it reduce to a single dimension? It is at least the 4th of 12. Just because it looks like a line from here, doesn’t mean that it is.

Information theory as applied to temporal events may simply imply that once you obtain information from the past or future, you can no longer return to your initial sequence or related sequences due to having changed you informational state.

As for Baryon numbers, why no just accept that if the preservation of baryon numbers is a requirement, then you will simply have to move an appropriate number of baryons from your target time point to your current one and swap them in order to travel in time. Not impossible, just almost impossible.

If all of the things that can happen are happening and you are concerned about determinism, think about being on a very large playing field where you can pick from a large variety of actions. There are some that may be possible, but not accessible from where you are - you may not exist in a timeline where magic is available, for example. Any of the available choices may be made, but they affect choices that you will have later on. Being limited to a linear interaction with time, they are important to you and those around you. The moral implications still matter. Of course, there is a group of timelines in which everything is deterministic and its inhabitants have no choice in what they do. You aren’t in one of those are you? If you are, you have no choice but to read this, obviously. Some of you have to take this as gospel. Pray you aren’t one of them. People on a roller coaster have no choice about where they go once the get on the ride… But I’ve never seen anyone who had NO choice in what they did, just very few good ones.
"I’ve been to the past. It was a lot like it is now. Dirty things were dirtier.

I’ve been to the future. It will be a lot like it is now. Shiny things will be shinier. Dirty things will be dirtier.

Doctor Who will be in body number 27, and will have been a woman twice, but neither one will have been River Song."

I can’t speak for where other people get their “entire idea[s]” from, but speaking for myself I’ve never claimed that traveling faster than light makes you go backwards in time, I’ve only pointed out that the ability to send information faster than c creates the same paradoxes as the ability to send information backwards in time.

For example, you are flying your spaceship in a landing hangar at .9c and you use a remote control to open the door and then close it behind you. Depending on when you push the buttons, this can create paradoxes where the door is both open and closed simultaneously if the remote control is able to send information faster than c and you can create the exact same paradoxes if the remote control is able to send information backwards in time.

BTW, traveling faster than light is very possible if the light you’re talking about is traveling through a medium (see Cherenkov Radiation). It’s more accurate to talk about traveling faster than c, which is the speed of light in a vacuum. </nitpick>

If anyone says the only reason you can’t travel faster than c is that you get more and more massive hence the energy required to exceed c is infinite… those people have failed to realize that even the ability to send information faster than c creates paradoxes. The mass of the message is irrelevant.

Why does the creation of paradoxes mean that FTL communication must necessarily be impossible?

Also, isn’t the increase in mass prohibitive regarding traveling at a large fraction of c? And given that one must first travel at a large fraction of c before one travels faster than c, isn’t it thus still accurate to say that the increase in mass prohibits FTL travel?
Powers &8^]

Overall I do not consider time a thing. You cannot travel in it. It is just the series of events. They happen. We observe the order of the events and assign time to them by referencing other events. We have memory, so we conceive of time.

Events can be slowed or sped up by various forces. Seemingly addition or subtraction of energy. Maybe gravity too, being considered a form of energy or subtraction of energy.

But I feel there is no such thing as time to be a location that exists before or after the current instant. You may slow your local time passage relative to another locality. But you do not shortcut time in general.

The order of events is also arbitrary. Event “A” can come before Event “B” in one timeline and after it in another.

A photon in space experiences the entire path of its travel as a flat two diminutional pancake with the starting point and ending point being located on the same coordinates. On the path’s periphery, all events that took place as that photon is traveling are happening all at the same time. There is no event that happened first or next.

(A photon travels at the speed of light, and at the speed of light, time stands still. To the photon traveling from Star A to Star B, if it leaves Star A at noon on Friday, it arrives at Star B also on noon on Friday. To the photon, the two stars sit right next to each other zero meters apart. Space collapses into a big two dimensional pancake.)

There is a relationship between space and time where if one doesn’t exist, the other cannot. Mathematician Sir Robert Penrose has a theory that when the Universe dies a heat death, time will no longer be possible since nothing in the Universe can ever change (no change, no time). However, if there is no time, there can be no space either. The Universe will suddenly find itself crammed into a pinpoint of space.

Penrose theorizes that at that time, the Universe collapses into a zero dimensional point, and a new Big Bang happens, and the whole Universe is reborn.

The funny thing is that Penrose’s theory isn’t all that controversial. What’s controversial is Penrose’s claim that we have evidence of these previous big bangs in the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe data.

More or less my thought. Time does not exist as a thing. Just events, compared with other events. Not as a thing that you can travel in. Or that exists in any way as a physical thing.