# Re: Jehovah's witnesses at the door **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [April 22, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-jehovahs-witnesses-at-the-door/579394 "2011-04-22T19:30:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-jehovahs-witnesses-at-the-door/579394/301 "2011-06-22T21:50:42Z")
I hate to rain on your guys’ parade, but everyone knows that Mormons have the secret handshakes, not JWs. And yes, I do know all of them. Unfortunately, I can’t sell them for money. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-jehovahs-witnesses-at-the-door/579394/302 "2011-06-22T22:00:01Z")
> [@simster](#): > > You really ought to read your own literature - You’re only an elder in your own appointed congregation - anywhere else, you’re just another witness - so there would be no need for a ‘special handshake’ or any other form of recognition for traveling elders. > > Its also safe to assume that the Circuit and Traveling Overseers are introduced by “known” elders/overseers and don’t just show up unannounced. In the case of an elder moving, they have a special form that is mailed in advance to the new congregation. Likely a similar form is sent for the overseers as well. > > I don’t currently have a copy of the previous manual handy - I can go digging if you really want - but somehow, I think that elder was pulling your leg - or it might be a practice that has been done away with. It is not mentioned in the ‘new’ manual that I have in front of me. > > (This feels a bit odd, me teaching you about the inner workings of your own group). **simster** , you are the Dwight K Schrute of the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-jehovahs-witnesses-at-the-door/579394/303 "2011-06-22T22:15:53Z")
MODERATOR GENTLY COUGHS FOR ATTENTION: Look, gang, we’re getting some fairly snarky comments in here that are uncalled for. A reminder that personal insults are not permitted in this forum. Please keep the discussion on JW’s (the topic) and not on other posters. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-jehovahs-witnesses-at-the-door/579394/304 "2011-06-22T22:17:26Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > MODERATOR GENTLY COUGHS FOR ATTENTION: > Look, gang, we’re getting some fairly snarky comments in here that are uncalled for. A reminder that personal insults are not permitted in this forum. Please keep the discussion on JW’s (the topic) and not on other posters. Sorry Dex. Will do. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-jehovahs-witnesses-at-the-door/579394/305 "2011-06-23T02:36:10Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > **simster** , you are the Dwight K Schrute of the SDMB. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-jehovahs-witnesses-at-the-door/579394/306 "2011-06-23T16:30:56Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > With all due respect, you don’t know what you’re talking about. And, I don’t mean that in a snarky way. If one spends a little time in these threads one comes away with an impression that doesn’t play in real life. My response was not about the effectiveness of getting converts, vs other forms of advertising. My response was in how to avoid dealing with people who are not interested. > [@](#): > > Overwhelmingly JWs face abject apathy. Indifference. An _infinitesimal_ amount of people will be angry. Actually a larger percentage will show at least some interest, and a fair amount of people will be at least receptive to some conversation. > > Yet time and time and time and time and time and time again we’ve read posts that often explicitly state—if not implicitly suggest-----that “I don’t like the JWs or their message and I’m simply not just representative of most people, **but I implicitly speak for all people** and we don’t want JWs coming to our houses.” You seem to be suggesting that if a person isn’t _angry_, they are not annoyed by being disturbed at home. Many of those apathetic, indifferent people are being polite about the interruption that they would prefer not to have had. Given the choice between pausing the TV, walking to the door, having some stranger ask me a question, telling them “no thanks go away”, and then returning to my living room, or continuing with my TV show uninterrupted, the latter is more pleasant. Doesn’t mean I’m going to punch you in the face, but if I had my druthers, I’d opt for the second. Every time. Doesn’t matter if it’s JW, Mormon, magazine subscriptions, or Girl Scout cookies. And that annoyance only goes up from there, depending on the importance of the activity it interrupts. It does not take any giant leap of faith to project that the vast majority of people are like me in that regard. > [@raindog](#): > > I meant to answer this before and we/I got sidetracked: Thank you for answering my questions. > [@simster](#): > > Considering that the watchtower org website claims that they spent 1,604,764,248 hours “preaching” (yes - thats BILLIONs of hours claimed) in 2010 (gotta wonder what qualifies as preaching, but that is another thread) and that resulted in 294,368 baptisms - many of which I’m sure were not first contacted in 2010 - that has to be pretty much the worst ROI imaginable. I don’t think that’s a fair correlation. “Preaching” is not limited to gaining converts. It is often done to members. Certainly for most forms of Christianity. Now if you had a catalog of “hours visiting house to house” vs baptisms, that might be slightly meaningful. > [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > I don’t think you need to claim access to some sort of universal truth to believe that most people find unwanted interruptions to their time at home annoying, at least a little bit. Most people will be polite about it, but most people will also prefer not to be bothered. I don’t think this is an extraordinary or controversial claim. Quoted for truth. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-jehovahs-witnesses-at-the-door/579394/307 "2011-06-23T16:50:42Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > I don’t think that’s a fair correlation. “Preaching” is not limited to gaining converts. It is often done to members. Certainly for most forms of Christianity. Now if you had a catalog of “hours visiting house to house” vs baptisms, that might be slightly meaningful. That’s typically what is being presented on the JW website - hours devoted to ‘door to door’ or “spreading of the good news” activity - which is what they require that each member report how many hours spent. It’s clearly not ‘all’ door to door, but it is still representative of the number of hours spent to gain converts. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-jehovahs-witnesses-at-the-door/579394/308 "2011-06-24T07:49:42Z")
> [@simster](#): > > what a jumble - to address the only thing in here that appears to be addressed to me - > So, Jesus’s clear words are to watch out for people claiming that they are special\* and that the time is near. > Don’t follow them. > The JW - since thier inception - have claimed, and continue to claim both. > This has nothing to do with “false prophets” nor is any other “proof” needed - its a clear and concise warning and directive. If you read the full chapter in context, the meaning of this passage does not change. > \*Christ is the English term for the Greek Χριστός (Khristós) meaning “the anointed one” - That was not a “jumble”; didn’t you read the line “some sundry ciomments”? :rolleyes: In any case, I’m glad you quoted the\* New International Versio\*\*n\* as well as the KJV, in Luke 21:8. The word “Christ” is absent from the NIV, and if you look in Strong’s _Concordance_ you will see an asterisk, which means that the English Revised Version of 1885 did not use the word “Christ” in this verse. In the manuscripts from which Erasmus prepared the Received Text, a shorthand of sorts was used, in which words like “God” or “Christ” could be substuituted for the Greek word _hos_ (“he”), or simply added, as was done here; according to the Westcott and Hort text the Greek phrase here is\* ego eimi,\* (literally, “I am”) with no pronoun or name following the verb. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-jehovahs-witnesses-at-the-door/579394/309 "2011-06-25T03:17:45Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > That was not a “jumble”; didn’t you read the line “some sundry ciomments”? :rolleyes: > In any case, I’m glad you quoted the\* New International Versio\*\*n\* as well as the KJV, in Luke 21:8. The word “Christ” is absent from the NIV, and if you look in Strong’s _Concordance_ you will see an asterisk, which means that the English Revised Version of 1885 did not use the word “Christ” in this verse. Well, close - In my copy of Strongs, there is no \*, simply a NIG reference (which says “Not In Greek”) - which, as you state, simply means that the word “Christ” is not in the original Greek. > [@dougie\_monty](#): > > In the manuscripts from which Erasmus prepared the Received Text, a shorthand of sorts was used, in which words like “God” or “Christ” could be substuituted for the Greek word _hos_ (“he”), or simply added, as was done here; according to the Westcott and Hort text the Greek phrase here is\* ego eimi,\* (literally, “I am”) with no pronoun or name following the verb. Which backs up my point quite nicely, thank you - that all that is required is the person/group to imply or state that they have ‘special’ backing - being anointed (as is commonly used via the word Christ) or having some other special relationship. Thank you for helping to prove that Jesus’ words (assuming you believe that those are Jesus’ words) quite nicely serve as a general warning and a directive. There will be others claiming to be anointed that will proclaim the time of the end is here. _ **Do not follow them.** _ So - answer the first part of the question - 1.) What is the WT’s principle message? 2.) What makes the WT “unique” compared to the other religions in this regard? 3.) How do you reconcile that with the clear and concise warning and directive as stated at Luke 21:8? ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-jehovahs-witnesses-at-the-door/579394/310 "2011-06-25T07:11:05Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Well, close - In my copy of Strongs, there is no \*, simply a NIG reference (which says “Not In Greek”) - which, as you state, simply means that the word “Christ” is not in the original Greek. > > **[You must have a re-edited version of the concordance.–d.m.]** > > Which backs up my point quite nicely, thank you - that all that is required is the person/group to imply or state that they have ‘special’ backing - being anointed (as is commonly used via the word Christ) or having some other special relationship. > > Thank you for helping to prove that Jesus’ words (assuming you believe that those are Jesus’ words) quite nicely serve as a general warning and a directive. > > There will be others claiming to be anointed that will proclaim the time of the end is here. > > _ **Do not follow them.** _ > > **[Others? I trust you are not including the Witnesses among these “others”–sounds like Jim Jones and Sun Set Looney or whatever his name is.–d.m.]** > So - answer the first part of the question - > > 1.) What is the WT’s principal message? > 2.) What makes the WT “unique” compared to the other religions in this regard? > 3.) How do you reconcile that with the clear and concise warning and directive as stated at Luke 21:8? :Sigh: 1. The message promulgated by Jesus and his apostles; Matthew 28:19; Acts 1:8. 2. What is unique is that the religion of Jesus was life-oriented–not death-oriented as the other religions of the world and Christendom are. Cf. John 10:10. This is why the Witnesses don’t preach a fate of heaven or hell after death as other religions do. 3. That said, if you read the whole 21st chapter of Luke, or, for that matter, the whole 24th chapter of Matthew, you’ll find that Jesus also mentioned a worldwide preaching of the good news of the Kingdom of God. Who does that other than the Witnesses? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-jehovahs-witnesses-at-the-door/579394/311 "2011-06-25T13:01:05Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > :Sigh: > > 1. The message promulgated by Jesus and his apostles; Matthew 28:19; Acts 1:8. > 2. What is unique is that the religion of Jesus was life-oriented–not death-oriented as the other religions of the world and Christendom are. Cf. John 10:10. > This is why the Witnesses don’t preach a fate of heaven or hell after death as other religions do. > 3. That said, if you read the whole 21st chapter of Luke, or, for that matter, the whole 24th chapter of Matthew, you’ll find that Jesus also mentioned a worldwide preaching of the good news of the Kingdom of God. Who does that other than the Witnesses? 🙂 I’m using the “Stongest Strongs Exhaustive Concordance” dated 2001 Let me give the answers - since your avoiding any specifics - 1.)The time is at hand, we are in the “last days” [QUOTE=[http://www.watchtower.org/e/jt/article\_04.htm](http://www.watchtower.org/e/jt/article_04.htm)] **The Good News They Want You to Hear** WHEN Jesus was on earth, his disciples came to him and asked: “What will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?” He replied that there would be wars involving many nations, famines, pestilences, earthquakes, an increasing of lawlessness, false religious teachers misleading many, a hatred and persecution of his true followers, and a cooling off of the love of righteousness in many people. When these things would start to happen, it would indicate that Christ was invisibly present and that the heavenly Kingdom was at hand. This would be news—good news! So Jesus added these words as a part of the sign: “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.” [/QUOTE] (Reading the rest of this ‘article’ lays out how we are in the end times) [QUOTE=[http://www.watchtower.org/e/20060915/article\_02.htm](http://www.watchtower.org/e/20060915/article_02.htm)] There is no doubt about it. The end of Satan’s system is close at hand. Those who ignore the evidence that we are living in the last days will be caught off guard when the end comes. [/QUOTE] 2.) That they are ‘Gods Chosen Channel’, indeed, they are his “Ambassadors” [QUOTE=The Watch Tower 1917 January 15 p.22] The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society is the greatest corporation in the world, because from the time of its organization until now the Lord has used it as his channel through which to make known the glad tidings. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Watchtower 1967 October 1 p.587] Finding Freedom with Jehovah’s Visible Organization Thus the Bible is an organizational book and belongs to the Christian congregation as an organization, not to individuals, regardless of how sincerely they may believe that they can interpret the Bible.\*\* For this reason the Bible cannot be properly understood without Jehovah’s visible organization in mind\*\*. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Watchtower 1973 pg 401] WHY APPRECIATE GOD’S ORGANIZATION 3 **For one thing, Jesus’ anointed followers, who are part of Jehovah’s earthly organization, are “ambassadors substituting for Christ.”** Their companions with earthly hopes also serve the interests of the Kingdom. (2Cor. 5:20) Mind you, they are not ambassadors and envoys of a mere human government and of sinful rulers. They represent Jehovah, his exalted spirit king Jesus Christ and the mighty kingdom of God. What an inestimable privilege!\*\* Of course, to serve and praise the Universal Sovereign, one must associate with the organization of Jehovah’s Christian witnesses\*\*. 4\*\* Consider, too, the fact that Jehovah’s organization alone, in all the earth, is directed by God’s holy spirit or active force.\*\* (Zech. 4:6) Only this organization functions for Jehovah’s purpose and to his praise.\*\* To it alone God’s Sacred Word, the Bible, is not a sealed book.\*\* Many persons of the world are very intelligent, capable of understanding complex matters. They can read the Holy Scriptures, but they cannot understand their deep meaning. Yet God’s people can comprehend such spiritual things. Why? Not because of special intelligence on their part, but as the apostle Paul declared: “For it is to us God has revealed them through his spirit, for the spirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God.” (1Cor. 2:10) Jesus Christ praised his heavenly Father for ‘hiding such things from the wise and intellectual ones but revealing them to babes.’ (Matt. 11:25) **How very much true Christians appreciate associating with the only organization on earth that understands the “deep things of God”!** [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=You Can live Forever (1982, 1990) p.255] Do not conclude that there are different roads, or ways, that you can follow to gain life in God’s new system. There is only one. There was just one ark that survived the Flood, not a number of boats.\*\* And there will be only one organization—God’s visible organization — that will survive the fast-approaching “great tribulation.” It is simply not true that all religions lead to the same goal… You must be part of Jehovah’s organization, doing God’s will, in order to receive his blessing of everlasting life…\*\* [/QUOTE] So - The WT states “We are god’s channel” and “The time is at hand” - These are but a few easy to find quotes showing they’ve had this same belief about themselves since the very beginning of their org. The WT talks a good deal about “love” and for its own members, it might be true - outside its doors, it’s quite a different story. How many soup kitchens, homeless shelters, ‘good will’ type things does the WT maintain? To say that the WT is not “death oriented” is misleading at the least - you actively teach and preach that pretty soon, everyone that is ‘not a member’ will be dead in the great tribulation. 3.) there are many ways to bring Christ’s words/teaching to others - focusing only on the “great tribulation” or the “end times” was the exact opposite of what Christ was teaching here. You want to bring his message - do what he did - Feed others, heal the sick, Help the neighbors (regardless of what they believe). again, reading the clear and concise warning and directive at Luke 21:8 - shows that the WT is doing exactly what was warned about here - **Do Not Follow Them**. It really doesn’t get any simpler than that. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-jehovahs-witnesses-at-the-door/579394/312 "2011-06-25T13:11:29Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > :Sigh: > > 1. The message promulgated by Jesus and his apostles; Matthew 28:19; Acts 1:8. > 2. What is unique is that the religion of Jesus was life-oriented–not death-oriented as the other religions of the world and Christendom are. Cf. John 10:10. > This is why the Witnesses don’t preach a fate of heaven or hell after death as other religions do. > 3. That said, if you read the whole 21st chapter of Luke, or, for that matter, the whole 24th chapter of Matthew, you’ll find that Jesus also mentioned a worldwide preaching of the good news of the Kingdom of God. Who does that other than the Witnesses? 🙂 To late to edit - in your response to 1, you listed two scriptures as cites - [QUOTE=Matthew 28:19] Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [/QUOTE] And your own Baptismal questions ignore this “commission” - [QUOTE=Baptismal questions from the Watchtower 1985 Jun 1 p.30] ``` (1) On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will? (2) Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization? ``` [/QUOTE] And you’ll have to explain how Acts 1:8 ‘fits’ - unless its again a claim that your group is ‘special’, to which again, I say thank you for backing up my point. [QUOTE=Acts 1:8] But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth. [/QUOTE] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-jehovahs-witnesses-at-the-door/579394.md?page=15)