# Re Kansas what happens welfare benefits are slashed, do poor people leave the state or what? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 4, 2015, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-kansas-what-happens-welfare-benefits-are-slashed-do-poor-people-leave-the-state-or-what/716838 "2015-04-04T22:56:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2015, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-kansas-what-happens-welfare-benefits-are-slashed-do-poor-people-leave-the-state-or-what/716838/301 "2015-04-18T17:10:47Z")
**WhyNot** , I recall proposals to restrict federal education grants/loans to more “useful” topics of study. I’m not sure who decides what is useful; perhaps there would be a formula based on pay and employment afterward. I could see something like this being reasonable, but I think it would depend on the specifics. I would want to see a solid cost-benefit analysis (I haven’t seen one for the KS law.) Our current system may introduce market distortions that contribute to the rising cost of education, so maybe this could be a fix. Maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-kansas-what-happens-welfare-benefits-are-slashed-do-poor-people-leave-the-state-or-what/716838/302 "2015-04-20T00:33:07Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > I would want to see a solid cost-benefit analysis (I haven’t seen one for the KS law.) What counts as a benefit? Or a cost? It seems to me that, as far as the $20 effective daily withdrawal limit, the costs and benefits are a wash (cost to recipients, benefits to banks) if all the monthly benefit is used. I suppose that a few people will not use all their monthly allowance because illness or another situation prevents them from collecting it all. In that case, if I understand TANF correctly, it is a benefit to Kansas. But maybe I am wrong and it is a benefit to the federal government. But, either way, cost and benefit is equal. Now, when it comes to forbidding out of state purchases, the obvious benefit is to Kansas merchants. Costs accrue to recipients who have to pay more for goods and services, by buying from higher priced merchants, and to everyone, in the US, but outside Kansas. That because commerce in other states will be harmed. There is an enforcement cost. To me, there is no corresponding benefit to put in the study. But to someone who really thinks it is morally wrong to buy a $3.00 dollar set of earings in a costume jewelry store like Claire’s, but it’s acceptable to buy it at WalMart, will think enforcing good laws is a benefit in itself. I’m not sure how to address this in a cost-benefit study. I’m completely against this law. But I don’t understand what kind of cost-benefit study would test my views. Since I probably agree with you on the main issue, perhaps you can convince me of your idea. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-kansas-what-happens-welfare-benefits-are-slashed-do-poor-people-leave-the-state-or-what/716838/303 "2015-04-20T01:26:25Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > I’m completely against this law. But I don’t understand what kind of cost-benefit study would test my views. Since I probably agree with you on the main issue, perhaps you can convince me of your idea. I think for any bill, it’s good to ask what, precisely, the bill is trying to accomplish. Then try to estimate how much it will cost to accomplish the goal or goals at different levels of efficacy, especially with respect to the status quo and to other methods. That’s assuming the goals are something you find laudable. The KS bill appears to be trying to prevent wasted funds, with waste including cross-border purchases and other things that are not necessarily on a list of wastes that I would have come up with myself. But if we pretend we all think this is a big problem that needs to be fixed, I think we should quantify the problem (I haven’t seen this) and see how much it costs both the state and the people affected to implement various fixes. Costs and benefits aren’t always monetary, which can make the analysis difficult. But it’s good to quantify what is quantifiable and note the rest. We can feel good about fixing a perceived injustice or helping people help themselves, or we can get our jollies from fuck the poors. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-kansas-what-happens-welfare-benefits-are-slashed-do-poor-people-leave-the-state-or-what/716838/304 "2015-04-21T01:33:16Z")
Gov. Brownback has signed it: [No tattoos, psychics or lingerie: Kansas passes ‘mean-spirited’ new restrictions for welfare recipients](http://news.nationalpost.com/news/world/kansas-reveals-new-list-of-mean-spirited-restrictions-for-welfare-recipients-744213) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-kansas-what-happens-welfare-benefits-are-slashed-do-poor-people-leave-the-state-or-what/716838/305 "2015-04-21T01:38:21Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > It seems to me that, as far as the $20 effective daily withdrawal limit, the costs and benefits are a wash (cost to recipients, benefits to banks) if all the monthly benefit is used. The $20 effective daily withdrawal limit is for cash withdrawal. The recipients can still spend more than that a day. They just have to use POS (and are limited in what they can buy through POS purchases). ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-kansas-what-happens-welfare-benefits-are-slashed-do-poor-people-leave-the-state-or-what/716838/306 "2015-04-21T02:38:46Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The recipients can still spend more than that a day. They just have to use POS (and are limited in what they can buy through POS purchases). The only daily limit rationale I can think of, other than enriching banks and harassing the poor, is to prevent TANF recipients from spending all their money towards the start of the month, so that they are penniless the rest of the time. If this law is such a great idea, why are you tooting a loophole that could let folks evade the daily limit? ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-kansas-what-happens-welfare-benefits-are-slashed-do-poor-people-leave-the-state-or-what/716838/307 "2015-04-21T22:26:42Z")
To show again that the new rules have nothing to do with fixing a problem, now they plan to punish the poor again by raising taxes in a way that will disproportionately effect the poor. > [@](#): > > Poor and working-class Kansans already carry a heavy burden under the state’s tax system, compared to people of modest incomes in most other states. Among the fifth of the Kansas population with the lowest incomes, the average person pays 11.1 percent of what they make in state and local taxes, including sales taxes. Among the wealthiest one in every 100 Kansans, the average tax bill is just 3.6 percent of annual income, according to a recent report from the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy. > > People who make less are more vulnerable to increases in sales and excise taxes, since they spend more of their money buying basic goods and services they need to get by. This is especially the case in Kansas, where food is subject to sales tax. Kansans can receive a tax rebate for their food purchases, but those who make nothing or too little to owe income tax aren’t eligible. They pay the sales tax on food in full. > > The defense of the plan to raise sales and excise taxes – the sales tax would increase from 6.15 percent to 6.3 percent, under one proposal – is that people should be taxed on what they spend, not what they make, so as not to penalize them for earning more but instead to encourage them to save and invest their money. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/04/21/vwelfap/](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/04/21/vwelfap/) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-kansas-what-happens-welfare-benefits-are-slashed-do-poor-people-leave-the-state-or-what/716838/308 "2015-04-21T22:58:29Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > The only daily limit rationale I can think of, other than enriching banks and harassing the poor, is to prevent TANF recipients from spending all their money towards the start of the month, so that they are penniless the rest of the time. > > If this law is such a great idea, why are you tooting a loophole that could let folks evade the daily limit? I think the rationale is to make auditing TANF easier and to make it harder for TANF recipients to spend money on “nonapproved” things. The Powers that Be can make sure that EBT cards don’t work at liquor stores, but they can’t keep TANF recipients from spending cash there, so Kansas’s solution is to limit the amount of TANF cash that people can get. And I don’t think the law, or laws like it, are great ideas, for a number of reasons that I don’t really have any desire to get into . But while I’m opposed to the law, I think it’s important we look at the law accurately without exaggeration, right? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-kansas-what-happens-welfare-benefits-are-slashed-do-poor-people-leave-the-state-or-what/716838/309 "2015-05-04T04:57:14Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > … The list of forbidden items is so long that even a welfare recipient who prides himself on adherence to law will have an impossible time memorizing all the purchases that are verboten. This violates basic principles of fairness. My sister has made an excellent suggestion that solves this and many other problems. Instead of a long hard-to-memorize list of forbidden items, why not just a short list of allowed items? Manufacturers would bid for the right to be on the short list. Imagine how much it would be worth to WalMart if welfare Mamas could only shop there. Or what McDonald’s would pay if no other restaurant were allowed. The companies that won the bidding could pay into the Kansas treasury to defray welfare costs, or, perhaps better yet, make their payments in the form of tax-deductible campaign contributions. This would work out well for the welfare recipients as well; they’d be allowed to buy (certain sponsored brands of) lingerie, or whatever, if the lingerie manufacturer paid enough for the privilege. Fans of Post cereals might have to switch to Kellogg’s, but is that a tragedy? They are spending taxpayer dollars, after all. This would be win-win-win for everyone, and might be an exemplar of modern capitalism at its finest. Kansas would be able to relieve taxpayers of some of the burden of supporting the freeloaders. Job Creators would be rewarded for creative marketing. Welfare recipients would have the pleasure of knowing their spending was being guided by salubrious market forces. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-kansas-what-happens-welfare-benefits-are-slashed-do-poor-people-leave-the-state-or-what/716838/310 "2015-05-04T12:19:30Z")
Please tell me that was satire… ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-kansas-what-happens-welfare-benefits-are-slashed-do-poor-people-leave-the-state-or-what/716838/311 "2015-05-04T14:56:33Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > The only daily limit rationale I can think of, other than enriching banks and harassing the poor, is to prevent TANF recipients from spending all their money towards the start of the month, so that they are penniless the rest of the time. If this is the goal the solution is to switch putting money into the account from once a month to twice a monthly or weekly. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-kansas-what-happens-welfare-benefits-are-slashed-do-poor-people-leave-the-state-or-what/716838/312 "2015-05-04T17:00:28Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Please tell me that was satire… ☹ My sister and I thought it was uproarious. I had hopes Dopers would join in the fun. That you thought I might be serious tells a sad story of how far downhill American “thought” has fallen. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-kansas-what-happens-welfare-benefits-are-slashed-do-poor-people-leave-the-state-or-what/716838/313 "2015-05-04T18:08:01Z")
It’s not that I didn’t see the humor, it’s that when I am subsisting for three days in a row on baked potatoes, ramen noodles, and nut butter sandwiches the “humor” cuts a little close to the bone. For some of us this is not an academic discussion, it’s how we’re trying to survive. (My SNAP account reloads on the 9th - I’ll find it funnier after a trip to the grocery store.) ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-kansas-what-happens-welfare-benefits-are-slashed-do-poor-people-leave-the-state-or-what/716838/314 "2015-05-04T18:59:36Z")
I thought it was great satire…Okay, good satire, in the tradition of satire which is to reveal uncomfortable truths and make one both smile and squirm, and vaguely feel like they need a shower. If you don’t have at least a moment of wondering if the author is serious, it’s not satire, it’s farce. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-kansas-what-happens-welfare-benefits-are-slashed-do-poor-people-leave-the-state-or-what/716838/315 "2015-05-04T19:03:56Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > If you don’t have at least a moment of wondering if the author is serious, it’s not satire, it’s farce. Poe’s Law: _“Without a clear indication of the author’s intent, it is difficult or impossible to tell the difference between an expression of sincere extremism and a parody of extremism.”_ ---
**Author:** ![OffByOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/45deac/32.png) [@OffByOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OffByOne)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2015, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-kansas-what-happens-welfare-benefits-are-slashed-do-poor-people-leave-the-state-or-what/716838/316 "2015-05-07T16:32:31Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > No one has answered this question yet. Why should a bank be expected, let alone required, to provide bank card services, without a fee? This has been answered again and again: Other states manage to negotiate fee-less transactions for their benefit recipients. Here’s a point that people that have never been poor don’t seem to understand: If a billionaire loses $1,000,000 dollars, he will say, Ouch! That hurt! Then make it all up tomorrow. If a “middle class” worker has an unexpected $1000 expense, that’s going to hurt, and much more than the billionaire losing a million dollars. In the case of the needy, having to pay an extra $10 could be the last step before homelessness. Without a home, it is much more difficult to gat ANY job, let alone one that would help them break the cycle of poverty. It is also distressing to see people acting like the only reason people are poor is so they can get benefits without haveing to work for them. Those are the same people that applaud sending American jobs overseas because that makes corporations more profitable, and who cares about those jobs anyway, because the people that previously held those jobs spent all their money on gambling and fortunetellers. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-kansas-what-happens-welfare-benefits-are-slashed-do-poor-people-leave-the-state-or-what/716838/317 "2015-05-08T12:58:59Z")
> [@OffByOne](#): > > In the case of the needy, having to pay an extra $10 could be the last step before homelessness. No doubt you can supply a few examples of people who were forced into homelessness by the lack of $10. Three would be plenty. If it was just exaggeration for effect, then my apologies for taking your post seriously. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2015, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-kansas-what-happens-welfare-benefits-are-slashed-do-poor-people-leave-the-state-or-what/716838/318 "2015-05-09T03:45:06Z")
Any post containing the word “salubrious” is satire. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2015, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-kansas-what-happens-welfare-benefits-are-slashed-do-poor-people-leave-the-state-or-what/716838/319 "2015-05-09T06:16:00Z")
“Salubrious market forces”. Kind of reminds me of that story about somebody asking Gandhi what he thought about Western civilization, and he said he thought it was a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-kansas-what-happens-welfare-benefits-are-slashed-do-poor-people-leave-the-state-or-what/716838/320 "2015-05-12T07:59:18Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Do you understand the concept of limited resources? And the fungibility of money? A very reliable person in this thread pointed out through the use of unveiled sarcasm: > [@Shodan](#): > > That’s not necessary - the eighty five cent charge is going to make ALL OF THEM DIE STARVING IN THE STREETS! So if it’s such a small amount for a family making less than $450 a month, it must be a REALLY small drop for a state with revenue of $5.7 billion a year? Right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-kansas-what-happens-welfare-benefits-are-slashed-do-poor-people-leave-the-state-or-what/716838.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-kansas-what-happens-welfare-benefits-are-slashed-do-poor-people-leave-the-state-or-what/716838.md?page=17)