# Re "Marriage is for White People" what is the "swag" that black men have, and white men do not? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 4, 2011, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-marriage-is-for-white-people-what-is-the-swag-that-black-men-have-and-white-men-do-not/595147 "2011-09-04T06:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-marriage-is-for-white-people-what-is-the-swag-that-black-men-have-and-white-men-do-not/595147/41 "2011-09-06T17:56:47Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > It seems to me that it’s primarily (if not solely) based on how one moves and carries himself. What matters is that you’re comfortable with yourself and the position you’re in, not what that position is. I don’t even want to speculate about the perceived color bias, but I expect it has something to do with a concept I’ve heard from a lot of guys–“I don’t have to brag, I know I have it.” Yeah, but you still have to brag a little, or no one knows you have it. So it’s a bit like being [Steve](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UefQYjG7rM)? ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-marriage-is-for-white-people-what-is-the-swag-that-black-men-have-and-white-men-do-not/595147/42 "2011-09-06T21:16:51Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > We didn’t call it ‘swagger’. In my day, we called it ‘steeze’ which was a play on the word ‘style’. Style - any kind - has been devalued as a marker of a dominant man. It probably picked up bad associations because of the metrosexual phenomenon. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-marriage-is-for-white-people-what-is-the-swag-that-black-men-have-and-white-men-do-not/595147/43 "2011-09-06T21:21:35Z")
> [@Swords\_to\_Plowshares](#): > > Apparently black guys get lots of free merchandise at conventions. I agree. Bumper stickers, t-shirts, tote bags, ID lanyards… all that stuff. Chicks love lanyards. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-marriage-is-for-white-people-what-is-the-swag-that-black-men-have-and-white-men-do-not/595147/44 "2011-09-06T22:03:51Z")
> [@Swords\_to\_Plowshares](#): > > Apparently black guys get lots of free merchandise at conventions. No, no. It’s white people who just _give_ each other things. ---
**Author:** ![Indygrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@Indygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indygrrl)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-marriage-is-for-white-people-what-is-the-swag-that-black-men-have-and-white-men-do-not/595147/45 "2011-09-07T03:17:50Z")
I mentioned that my best friend and I were talking about this the other night. She’s an amazing woman, and I respect her opinions a lot, and this is what she had to say in response to the article: > [@](#): > > I don’t know really how to articulate how I feel about it other than frustration, sadness & anger. This article is based on the professor I mentioned who wrote a book on the subject. I agree with everything he’s saying, but agreeing does …not bring me to a solution. The solution seems unreachable to me. The solution in its simplest form is for the availability of more black men who are on the “level” of the middle/upper class black women dying for a relationship or marriage. The problem is a chronic one with the jail and education statistics and other things. To me, until those issues are solved in the black community, spawned & spearheaded by the black man himself, then we stay at square one. > > I would have less anger about it if it wasn’t suggested that a white man (or other non-black man) is the only option or saving grace. I think if black women felt they had ALL dating options available to them - as it seems white women/men & black men themselves do -it wouldn’t feel so hopeless. It’s like saying “black men are not available to you, so cut your losses & go for the next best thing.” Being forced to accept that notion is infuriating. Imagine going to the store for chocolate ice cream, and they quit making it at every store, only offering vanilla!? We’d all be pissed. That’s what the undertone of these ideas feels like to a black woman. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-marriage-is-for-white-people-what-is-the-swag-that-black-men-have-and-white-men-do-not/595147/46 "2011-09-07T03:27:02Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > So it’s a bit like being [Steve](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UefQYjG7rM)? Yeah, pretty much. Pretty much exactly. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-marriage-is-for-white-people-what-is-the-swag-that-black-men-have-and-white-men-do-not/595147/47 "2011-09-07T16:34:32Z")
> [@Indygrrl](#): > > I mentioned that my best friend and I were talking about this the other night. She’s an amazing woman, and I respect her opinions a lot, and this is what she had to say in response to the article: Interesting. But I can’t quite relate to her anger at being advised to expand her choices beyond black men. If I wanted chocolate ice cream, but stores only sold vanilla, I would be sorely disappointed. But I wouldn’t get pissed at anyone just for suggesting that I buy vanilla. It’s either buy vanilla and try to like it as much if not more than chocolate, or sit at home pining away for chocolate…and possibly going without any ice cream at all. Is the latter scenario better? I get more more pissed when people suggest that vanilla and other flavors aren’t even an option for black women. It’s chocolate ice cream or nothing. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-marriage-is-for-white-people-what-is-the-swag-that-black-men-have-and-white-men-do-not/595147/48 "2011-09-07T18:48:09Z")
[Do I have to do everything around here?](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=swag) ---
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-marriage-is-for-white-people-what-is-the-swag-that-black-men-have-and-white-men-do-not/595147/49 "2011-09-07T21:19:34Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I agree. Bumper stickers, t-shirts, tote bags, ID lanyards… all that stuff. > > Chicks love lanyards. Shouldn’t that be “Bitches love lanyards.”? ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-marriage-is-for-white-people-what-is-the-swag-that-black-men-have-and-white-men-do-not/595147/50 "2011-09-07T22:21:38Z")
What an awful article. As for swagger, it’s not a black thing or a white thing but a cocky thing. I’ve seen CEO’s who are old, white men with more swagger than Michael Jordan (and I’ve met Michael Jordan). ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-marriage-is-for-white-people-what-is-the-swag-that-black-men-have-and-white-men-do-not/595147/51 "2011-09-07T22:31:44Z")
How can we learn this “swagger” thing? ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-marriage-is-for-white-people-what-is-the-swag-that-black-men-have-and-white-men-do-not/595147/52 "2011-09-08T01:06:00Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Interesting. But I can’t quite relate to her anger at being advised to expand her choices beyond black men. If I wanted chocolate ice cream, but stores only sold vanilla, I would be sorely disappointed. But I wouldn’t get pissed at anyone just for suggesting that I buy vanilla. It’s either buy vanilla and try to like it as much if not more than chocolate, or sit at home pining away for chocolate…and possibly going without any ice cream at all. Is the latter scenario better? What if you were told, sorry, honey, but you have to consider the possibility that maybe you’re just not good enough for chocolate ice cream. And anyway, somebody else bought it all first and there’s none left. But there’s still plenty of vanilla. How 'bout some of that for you instead, _hon_? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-marriage-is-for-white-people-what-is-the-swag-that-black-men-have-and-white-men-do-not/595147/53 "2011-09-08T01:49:44Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > What if you were told, sorry, honey, but you have to consider the possibility that maybe you’re just not good enough for chocolate ice cream. And anyway, somebody else bought it all first and there’s none left. But there’s still plenty of vanilla. How 'bout some of that for you instead, _hon_? Sure this would be piss me off, but this also differs signficantly from the analogy that was made. If I’m missing some nuance, someone help me out. Perhaps I’m a black woman who looks as this issue slightly different than **Indygrrl’s** friend, but I don’t shed any tears over black guys who thinks less of me because I’m black. These guys simply cease to me; I waste no time thinking or worrying about them. At any rate, I don’t think this particular breed of idiot is anywhere as numerous as people make it out to be. Most black men have no problems dating and marrying black women. Even if they are open to other races, they usually pair up with black women. The white woman bogeyman is really just that. A bogeyman. The much bigger issue is the achievement gap between black men and women. Since black women are far outperforming their brothers socioeconomically, when it comes to dating, the truth is that these women aren’t really the being ones told they “aren’t good enough for chocolate ice cream”. The reality is that a lot of chocolate ice cream that’s on the market doesn’t match up to black women standards, and they are single because of this incompatibility. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-marriage-is-for-white-people-what-is-the-swag-that-black-men-have-and-white-men-do-not/595147/54 "2011-09-08T03:20:12Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > How can we learn this “swagger” thing? According to several posters here, in a thread that I once had a long time ago about pickup artists, you CANNOT learn this “swagger thing.” According to these people, you are either born with it or you’re not. I thought this was foolish. I said that the human capacity for learning things is limitless. For example, I said that the military is able to teach people to be Marines, and learning how to be a Marine (or a Navy SEAL or any other demanding, dangerous job) has got to be harder than learning “swagger.” I said that people can learn how to be brain surgeons and nuclear physicists; this has to be harder than learning “swagger.” Nope, said these nay-sayers. Apparently swagger is IMPOSSIBLE to learn. You have to be born with it. I finally said that the men who do have swagger probably picked it up when they were young by observing other men and the way they acted. Isn’t that a form of learning? Of acquiring knowledge where there was none before? Apparently not. In some peoples’ minds, YOU CANNOT LEARN SWAGGER. So don’t even TRY! Resign yourself to living in a basement and masturbating to World of Warcraft, because you will be a loser for life! ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-marriage-is-for-white-people-what-is-the-swag-that-black-men-have-and-white-men-do-not/595147/55 "2011-09-08T03:54:25Z")
What I’m picturing as “swagger” is pretty much what [Levi Johnston](http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2008/09/were_sorry_but_palin_babydaddy.html) seems to have. Maybe you can learn it, but much time in trailer parks must you spend, kicking at cow patties and exposing the back of your neck to the sun. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-marriage-is-for-white-people-what-is-the-swag-that-black-men-have-and-white-men-do-not/595147/56 "2011-09-08T04:16:16Z")
I am currently attending a historically black law school. About 50% of my class is black, and somewhere between two thirds and three quarters of that half is female (females are overrepresented in the class, and the school generally, regardless of race). There is a definite trend among the black women in the class in terms of their partners; I’ve met about 20 of the husbands/boyfriends, and all of them have less education than their wives/girlfriends, or at least will once we graduate. Most are tradespeople- air conditioning technicians, carpenters, and so on. The rest are in sales, except for one guy who is a financial planner (which may or may not essentially mean he’s also in sales). Since women now outnumber men in higher education generally, I guess the question is whether educated white women will have the same complaint in thirty years- that they can’t find mates with similar or better education levels and/or income. It’ll be especially interesting then since they won’t have the option to switch to white men. Maybe they’ll all go Asian. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-marriage-is-for-white-people-what-is-the-swag-that-black-men-have-and-white-men-do-not/595147/57 "2011-09-08T04:32:59Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > There is a definite trend among the black women in the class in terms of their partners; I’ve met about 20 of the husbands/boyfriends, and all of them have less education than their wives/girlfriends, or at least will once we graduate. > > Most are tradespeople- air conditioning technicians, carpenters, and so on. The rest are in sales, except for one guy who is a financial planner (which may or may not essentially mean he’s also in sales). Those are good, respectable jobs, though; it’s not like these guys are thugs or hustlers. They may be less “educated” - book-smart - but carpentry is a demanding trade, and HVAC is practically like being a scientist. There’s lots of precise work involved. These guys probably have as much, or more, money-making potential as the college graduates, if they’re good at their jobs. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-marriage-is-for-white-people-what-is-the-swag-that-black-men-have-and-white-men-do-not/595147/58 "2011-09-08T04:38:20Z")
Not saying there’s anything wrong or lower about trades. I’ve mentioned many times on here that far too many people in the West go to college when they should be going to trade/vocational schools. It’s just interesting, at least to me. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-marriage-is-for-white-people-what-is-the-swag-that-black-men-have-and-white-men-do-not/595147/59 "2011-09-08T05:10:56Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It’ll be especially interesting then since they won’t have the option to switch to white men. Maybe they’ll all go Asian. In the US, how are Asian men doing compared to Asian women? As for the swag, men in rougher milieux, irrespective of race, tend to develop more signs of toughness/machismo\* because they want to minimize their likelihood of being victimized/ostracized and because in those milieux, toughness/machismo is the main source of status. Their subcultures value toughness/machismo more. It’s the same reason people try to look tough in prison; if you don’t, you might end up as the a designated victim and on the bottom rung. The more violent a milieu is, the more you have to look tough/macho to show predators you’re not an easy target and not have people walk over you. Black men are more likely to grow up in such an environment or be influenced by that subculture. Being in an environment where you developed instinctive macho posturing is not something to feel lucky about. Or this: [Gangstas vs. Rednecks: Weirdly Similar Subcultures [CHART] | Cracked.com](http://www.cracked.com/article_19143_gangstas-vs.-rednecks-weirdly-similar-subcultures-5Bchart5D.html) \*I believe we had a thread by Lakai where he asked why working class people are more likely to get in your face and upper class people aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-marriage-is-for-white-people-what-is-the-swag-that-black-men-have-and-white-men-do-not/595147/60 "2011-09-08T17:11:02Z")
Please people stop with the ‘black men needed to toughen up because the ghetto is tough and aren’t we lucky we don’t need to pretend to be macho’ stuff. Swagger is NOT macho postering. Macho postering is some kind of corny shit that cornballs do and it isn’t hot. Swagger = steez = style. It is an easy, confident, cool way that some people have. I know black men who have known nothing but the most pampered life and they can still have it. Athletes who are good at football in school had it. Lots of folks had it who weren’t fighting for their lives in the ghetto. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-marriage-is-for-white-people-what-is-the-swag-that-black-men-have-and-white-men-do-not/595147.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-marriage-is-for-white-people-what-is-the-swag-that-black-men-have-and-white-men-do-not/595147.md?page=4)