# Re Miers appointment Columnist George Will kinda-sorta calls President Bush an idiot **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 5, 2005, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-miers-appointment-columnist-george-will-kinda-sorta-calls-president-bush-an-idiot/324830 "2005-10-05T03:20:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-miers-appointment-columnist-george-will-kinda-sorta-calls-president-bush-an-idiot/324830/41 "2005-10-05T21:39:03Z")
Yeah, I can see that as troubling. Nixon a feud going with the fed chairman occupying that slot, William McChesney Martin, Jr. for a while until he was able to replace him with Arthur F. Burns in 1970. Nixon thought Martin was too independent and he could exercise more control over his friend (Hey! Look! There’s that damnable cronyism again.) Burns. Nixon formed his friendship with Burns (despite Nixon’s anti-semitic streak and Burns being Jewish) while Burns served on Eisenhower’s Council of Economic Advisors. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-miers-appointment-columnist-george-will-kinda-sorta-calls-president-bush-an-idiot/324830/42 "2005-10-05T21:46:32Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > If I get your drift you are saying that because all Presidents appoint trusted friends as staff, aides, and Cabinet members the same thing should apply to Supreme Court appointments? No. Note the posts to which I had replied. I’m just saying that cronyism has infested every administration, and isn’t limited to Bush. I think that the judgment of qualifications is often a partisan exercise. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-miers-appointment-columnist-george-will-kinda-sorta-calls-president-bush-an-idiot/324830/43 "2005-10-05T21:49:02Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > True 'nuf, dat. But this portion—“subordinates who aren’t very qualified for their positions”—of your definition seems to me to leave a lot of room for subjectivity to enter the equation. There’s no way to squeeze the subjectivity out. We’re talking about something that isn’t precisely measurable - how qualified someone is for a government position. Ultimately, all you can do is compare lists of names with the people you’re in the discussion with, see how well they match up, and try to reach common ground on the names that are on one person’s list of cronies but not on the other’s. > [@](#): > > And as the samples in this thread go (which seem to cover every recent president except GHWB), cronyism isn’t exclusively the domain of GWB. So we’re still trying to determine if the extent of GWB’s crony appointments exceed those of other recent presidents. I agree that all recent Presidents, going back to JFK appointing his kid brother Attorney General, have practiced cronyism to varying degrees. (Turned out that RFK turned out to be a fairly good AG, but he didn’t have much of a resume going in.) Abe Fortas, Bert Lance, William French Smith…lots of cronies over time. > [@](#): > > I’m not convinced yet though, that GWB’s cronyism surpasses that of previous presidents as some here are claiming. I think I need to hear what Cliffy has to say in support of his assertion. You shouldn’t be convinced until someone comes up with a list of Bush cronies that’s got more than just a few names on it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-miers-appointment-columnist-george-will-kinda-sorta-calls-president-bush-an-idiot/324830/44 "2005-10-05T22:00:42Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > Miers is fairly young and will likely be on the Court for a long time. She’s 60. That’s actually pretty old to be appointed. She may serve for 20 years, true, but I’d be surprised to see a president appoint someone older. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-miers-appointment-columnist-george-will-kinda-sorta-calls-president-bush-an-idiot/324830/45 "2005-10-05T22:10:23Z")
> [@](#): > > There’s no way to squeeze the subjectivity out. We’re talking about something that isn’t precisely measurable - how qualified someone is for a government position. We’d need some sort of proxy, like the level of public outcry, to measure perception of qualification. Perhaps the number of negative references found in a random sample of contemporary press. We would probably have to assume that these negative references are uncorrelated with the prevailing administration, which is probably a bigger lie than I swallow. I think this sort of quantification exercise as suggested by **UncleBeer** us not of enormous utility. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-miers-appointment-columnist-george-will-kinda-sorta-calls-president-bush-an-idiot/324830/46 "2005-10-05T22:35:01Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > She’s 60. That’s actually pretty old to be appointed. She may serve for 20 years, true, but I’d be surprised to see a president appoint someone older. I stand corrected. [hijack] Of course 60 can seem young 😉 George Burns to a curvy 25 year old chorus girl. “If I were 20 years younger - I’d ask your grandmother for a date.”[/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-miers-appointment-columnist-george-will-kinda-sorta-calls-president-bush-an-idiot/324830/47 "2005-10-05T23:48:15Z")
I can’t offer quantitative proof that Bush is more cronyistic than other presidents. I will, however, point out that there’s a big difference in how a president appoints his chief of staff and other close aides, in which case he would be remiss in NOT being cronyistic (after all, it benefits the country for the president to be working with people who are familiar with his personal style, etc.), and how he appoints other jobs, particular ones where highly specialized experience and qualifications are needed to best serve the American public (both FEMA and the supreme court fall into this category, although obviously for different reasons). ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-miers-appointment-columnist-george-will-kinda-sorta-calls-president-bush-an-idiot/324830/48 "2005-10-05T23:55:30Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I can’t offer quantitative proof that Bush is more cronyistic than other presidents. Who was the last president that lost a major crony to resignation following a nationwide call for the incompetent official’s blood? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-miers-appointment-columnist-george-will-kinda-sorta-calls-president-bush-an-idiot/324830/49 "2005-10-06T00:43:00Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Who was the last president that lost a major crony to resignation following a nationwide call for the incompetent official’s blood? Bush. Do I get a cookie? Of course you could have used just the first 5 words of that post to get the response you wanted. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-miers-appointment-columnist-george-will-kinda-sorta-calls-president-bush-an-idiot/324830/50 "2005-10-06T01:21:07Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Do I get a cookie? Nope. To get the cookie, you have to name the last president, _preceding Bush_, that lost a major crony to resignation following a nationwide call for the incompetent official’s blood. But then you knew that, didn’t you? You’re just being obtuse in an attempt to get a cookie you without _earning_ it. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-miers-appointment-columnist-george-will-kinda-sorta-calls-president-bush-an-idiot/324830/51 "2005-10-06T01:33:21Z")
> [@](#): > > **Dan Blather** : …and Miers is O’Connor-esque (woman, elected office background, non-rabid conservative [when appointed]). O’Connor, unlike Miers, graduated third in her class at Stanford University Law School and served as a judge. There was some basis upon which to judge her scholarly qualifications. You are correct in that they both have been determined to have vaginas. > [@](#): > > **Liberal** : What President has ever gone into the White House filling key positions close to him with people he doesn’t know? He’d have to be an idiot. Especially for something like White House counsel. > [@](#): > > **Liberal** : I’m just saying that cronyism has infested every administration, and isn’t limited to Bush. I think that the judgment of qualifications is often a partisan exercise. I am not a Presidential scholar and don’t know which Presidents have used or abused cronyism. I do distinguish between the two. John F. Kennedy’s friends and associates were among the best minds in the country, but even he made bad choices. I agree that the judgment of qualifications is often a partisan exercise. In the case of Harriet Miers, _both_ parties are still wondering what her qualifications are. _For all we know_, she could be another Mike Brown – except she would be in her position **permanently**. BTW, I wonder why Bush gave her the duties of Staff Secretary before making her White House Counsel. If she is qualified in 2005 to be one of the Supremes, why wasn’t she chosen to be White House Counsel in 2001? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-miers-appointment-columnist-george-will-kinda-sorta-calls-president-bush-an-idiot/324830/52 "2005-10-06T01:37:39Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Nope. To get the cookie, you have to name the last president, _preceding Bush_, that lost a major crony to resignation following a nationwide call for the incompetent official’s blood. But then you knew that, didn’t you? You’re just being obtuse in an attempt to get a cookie you without _earning_ it. Depending on how you define “nationwide call” and “major crony”, both of which are highly subjective phrases, one could argue that the last president to be in that situation was Clinton, when Les Aspin resigned as SecDef after less than 1 year in office and the bungling of the military mission in Somalia (see: _Blackhawk Down_ for more details). Cookie? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-miers-appointment-columnist-george-will-kinda-sorta-calls-president-bush-an-idiot/324830/53 "2005-10-06T01:59:58Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > one could argue that the last president to be in that situation was Clinton, when Les Aspin resigned as SecDef after less than 1 year in office and the bungling of the military mission in Somalia (see: _Blackhawk Down_ for more details). > > Cookie? There are some who would argue that the time [Aspin spent on the house armed services committee](http://www.defenselink.mil/specials/secdef_histories/bios/aspin.htm), and as chair beginning in 1985, actually provided sufficient work experience to justify his elevation to Secretary of Defense. If you’re willing to cede Colin Powell as a crony appointment, you might be able to slip Aspin in under the same definition; but it seems quite a stretch. No cookie. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-miers-appointment-columnist-george-will-kinda-sorta-calls-president-bush-an-idiot/324830/54 "2005-10-06T02:05:09Z")
What about Associate Attorney General Webb Hubbell? I think a crony resigning in scandal counts as well, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-miers-appointment-columnist-george-will-kinda-sorta-calls-president-bush-an-idiot/324830/55 "2005-10-06T02:06:11Z")
Oh, and peanut butter cookies are my favorite. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-miers-appointment-columnist-george-will-kinda-sorta-calls-president-bush-an-idiot/324830/56 "2005-10-06T02:09:09Z")
Perhaps the word “crony” is too freighted for this conversation, carries coarse and rude Tammany-like connotations. There are Iowans present, we should be mindful of their delicate sensibilities. But what have we? Clearly, “confidant” will fit the bill. We are given to understand that GeeDubya thoroughly understands Ms M and her “judicial philosophy” in minute detail: save that he _doesn’t_ know what her views re RvW are, because he never asked the question, having no litmus test, yadda bla yadda bla. This extraordinary form of personal intimacy - so encompassing, and yet so minutely specific - is what we are offered as a basis for judgement. The President offers his personal credibility as guarantee, rather like a torn and slobber soaked tennis ball is offered by a playful puppy. At the same instant, the WH is in communication with some of our leading Trog Right. Witness the following (by way of _Daily Kos_… (James Dobson speaking, on his radio show) > [@](#): > > …He went on the claim that “I’m getting calls from members of Congress saying ‘tell us your take on this, we’re not sure what we think of Harriet Miers.’” He then admitted “It was leaked to the media that I’ve had conversations with Karl Rove and the White House, which is true.”… So GeeDubya is telling _them_ that Ms M is “one of us”, while simultaneously and bare-faced telling us that he doesn’t _know_ what she thinks. Conclusion: the Bushiviks know exactly what strain of “judicial philosophy” they are seeking to introduce, the petri dish was clearly marked. They hope to sneak her past scrutiny and avoid a struggle that they _might_ lose, if it comes out that she favors mandatory celibacy for members of Congress. Then, they can turn to their Trog Right base and claim a mighty victory for the Lord, when it was more like turning back the odometer on a used car. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-miers-appointment-columnist-george-will-kinda-sorta-calls-president-bush-an-idiot/324830/57 "2005-10-06T02:10:34Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Oh, and peanut butter cookies are my favorite. Thanks. We fear that such handouts would damage your self-esteem, and stifle your entreneurial spirit. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-miers-appointment-columnist-george-will-kinda-sorta-calls-president-bush-an-idiot/324830/58 "2005-10-06T02:20:11Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > We fear that such handouts would damage your self-esteem, and stifle your entreneurial spirit. Well, too late on that last one. I’ve been paid by the government since 1993. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-miers-appointment-columnist-george-will-kinda-sorta-calls-president-bush-an-idiot/324830/59 "2005-10-06T02:32:50Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > I think a crony resigning in scandal counts as well, don’t you? No. This is politics. Of course a president will end up with a few bad apples. **John** ’s on the right track with Aspin’s arguable incompetence. I just think his background puts him in with the ‘circle of grey eminences’, rather than the ‘political payback appointments.’ > [@elucidator](#): > > So GeeDubya is telling them that Ms M is “one of us”, while simultaneously and bare-faced telling us that he doesn’t know what she thinks. > > Conclusion: the Bushiviks know exactly what strain of “judicial philosophy” they are seeking to introduce, the petri dish was clearly marked. They hope to sneak her past scrutiny and avoid a struggle that they might lose, if it comes out that she favors mandatory celibacy for members of Congress. If only those WMD’s had turned out to be real, the right might have been willing to take the president’s word. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-miers-appointment-columnist-george-will-kinda-sorta-calls-president-bush-an-idiot/324830/60 "2005-10-06T13:17:37Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > They hope to sneak her past scrutiny and avoid a struggle that they _might_ lose, if it comes out that she favors mandatory celibacy for members of Congress. If she favored mandatory retroactive celibacy for their _parents_, the popular upswelling in her support would be irresistible. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-miers-appointment-columnist-george-will-kinda-sorta-calls-president-bush-an-idiot/324830.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-miers-appointment-columnist-george-will-kinda-sorta-calls-president-bush-an-idiot/324830.md?page=4)