# Re Rachael Dolezal vs Caitlyn Jenner is being transgendered more than a state of mind? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 25, 2015, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-rachael-dolezal-vs-caitlyn-jenner-is-being-transgendered-more-than-a-state-of-mind/723452 "2015-06-25T17:35:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-rachael-dolezal-vs-caitlyn-jenner-is-being-transgendered-more-than-a-state-of-mind/723452/21 "2015-06-25T20:08:38Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > To me, the issue is that Dolezal specifically lied about something for personal gain. IOW although they may not come out and say it the NAACP probably wants their president to be African-American. So she deliberately passed herself off as black for decades with this career goal in mind. Which if that’s the case, is unethical in my mind. If it’s “personal gain” based is a non-surgically altered M-F transgender person “lying” if they represent themselves as female in initiating a dating or romantic relationship with someone they find attractive and want to be with, and the other person is unaware of their transition? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-rachael-dolezal-vs-caitlyn-jenner-is-being-transgendered-more-than-a-state-of-mind/723452/22 "2015-06-25T20:13:31Z")
nm, poorly-stated, late in the day. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-rachael-dolezal-vs-caitlyn-jenner-is-being-transgendered-more-than-a-state-of-mind/723452/23 "2015-06-25T20:21:41Z")
> [@BetsQ](#): > > I don’t think the bolded part is entirely true. If gender were truly removed from other people’s perceptions, then there would be no need to present yourself in a way that falls in line with gendered expectations, right? There is not such a need. Why reinforce the wrong-headed expectations of others? Does a biologically female person who identifies as a woman have to wear make-up, heels, a dress, etc. to actually be a woman? ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-rachael-dolezal-vs-caitlyn-jenner-is-being-transgendered-more-than-a-state-of-mind/723452/24 "2015-06-25T20:26:35Z")
> [@astro](#): > > If it’s “personal gain” based is a non-surgically altered M-F transgender person “lying” if they represent themselves as female in initiating a dating or romantic relationship with someone they find attractive and want to be with, and the other person is unaware of their transition? Uh, what? How long will this ruse “for personal gain” continue? Years, like in Dolezal’s case? ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-rachael-dolezal-vs-caitlyn-jenner-is-being-transgendered-more-than-a-state-of-mind/723452/25 "2015-06-25T20:50:13Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Man, obviously. If she was a woman, should would not be eligible. So are we dismissing Jenner’s physiological reality or psychological reality at the time? And now? I guess the answer “physiologically male, thus competed in the men’s division, but psychologically female, so” is where we’re at. That would seem to raise more questions than it’s answered, though - isn’t someone who completely identifies as a woman but has Jenner’s 1976 physiology (and physique - among the very best in the world) being discriminated against by not being allowed to compete as a woman? I’m not being snarky or clever. If, as the present zeitgeist insists, Jenner is a woman and has been since her teen years, and it is offensive, gender-phobic and demeaning to say “he” won the decathlon back then… how do we reconcile that with the 1976 **Men 's** Decathlon gold medal? ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-rachael-dolezal-vs-caitlyn-jenner-is-being-transgendered-more-than-a-state-of-mind/723452/26 "2015-06-25T20:56:51Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > I’m not being snarky or clever. If, as the present zeitgeist insists, Jenner is a woman and has been since her teen years, and it is offensive, gender-phobic and demeaning to say “he” won the decathlon back then… how do we reconcile that with the 1976 **Men 's** Decathlon gold medal? She wasn’t presenting as a woman at the time. It is all right to say that Bruce Jenner won the Olympic medals. If she was a woman at the time, there’d be no need for transition. She would not be considered a _trans_woman. There was a transition, there was a point where Bruce became Caitlyn. The existence of Caitlyn doesn’t invalidate the existence of Bruce. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-rachael-dolezal-vs-caitlyn-jenner-is-being-transgendered-more-than-a-state-of-mind/723452/27 "2015-06-25T21:02:59Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > I’m not being snarky or clever. If, as the present zeitgeist insists, Jenner is a woman and has been since her teen years, and it is offensive, gender-phobic and demeaning to say “he” won the decathlon back then… how do we reconcile that with the 1976 **Men 's** Decathlon gold medal? Like this: “Kaitlyn Jenner won the 1976 Men’s Decathlon gold medal.” It’s not exactly squaring the circle. If your conversational partner says “Huh?”, feel free to add further context. “In 2015, Kaitlyn, formerly Bruce, Jenner began her public transition to female, blah blah blah.” Seriously, you all make this so much harder than it is. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-rachael-dolezal-vs-caitlyn-jenner-is-being-transgendered-more-than-a-state-of-mind/723452/28 "2015-06-25T21:03:37Z")
> [@ZipperJJ](#): > > She wasn’t presenting as a woman at the time. It is all right to say that Bruce Jenner won the Olympic medals. > > If she was a woman at the time, there’d be no need for transition. She would not be considered a _trans_woman. There was a transition, there was a point where Bruce became Caitlyn. The existence of Caitlyn doesn’t invalidate the existence of Bruce. So I’d think. I’ve been told, online and across the dinner table, that such thinking is gender-phobic, dismissive and demeaning. It kind of seems like FDR being an accomplished tennis player has to be erased from the historical record. But I freely admit a generational viewpoint that may be outmoded. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-rachael-dolezal-vs-caitlyn-jenner-is-being-transgendered-more-than-a-state-of-mind/723452/29 "2015-06-25T21:06:28Z")
Some high schools are already allowing trans students choose whether to play on boys’ teams or girls’ teams. The future of male-excluded sports competition is dim. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-rachael-dolezal-vs-caitlyn-jenner-is-being-transgendered-more-than-a-state-of-mind/723452/30 "2015-06-25T21:08:18Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Like this: “Kaitlyn Jenner won the 1976 Men’s Decathlon gold medal.” It’s not exactly squaring the circle. If your conversational partner says “Huh?”, feel free to add further context. “In 2015, Kaitlyn, formerly Bruce, Jenner began her public transition to female, blah blah blah.” Seriously, you all make this so much harder than it is. All you’ve done is restate the semantic issue and its presently-accepted solution. I know all that, and have since before this particular debate began. I have no problem with people self-defining themselves… but such definitions quickly run into stubborn practical gauntlets for the rest of us as a whole. I am questioning the ethical/personal definition issues that extend past the subject person’s personal attitude, which is pretty much the centerline of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-rachael-dolezal-vs-caitlyn-jenner-is-being-transgendered-more-than-a-state-of-mind/723452/31 "2015-06-25T21:09:32Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > Some high schools are already allowing trans students choose whether to play on boys’ teams or girls’ teams. The future of male-excluded sports competition is dim. Yes, I was thinking along these lines. If gender in sports is a matter of declaration, even if it’s honest, it will be the end of XX/physiologically female athletes winning any medal or competition at all. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-rachael-dolezal-vs-caitlyn-jenner-is-being-transgendered-more-than-a-state-of-mind/723452/32 "2015-06-25T21:11:37Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > All you’ve done is restate the semantic issue and its presently-accepted solution. I know all that, and have since before this particular debate began. I have no problem with people self-defining themselves… but such definitions quickly run into stubborn practical gauntlets for the rest of us as a whole. They really don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-rachael-dolezal-vs-caitlyn-jenner-is-being-transgendered-more-than-a-state-of-mind/723452/33 "2015-06-25T21:12:04Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > They really don’t. Okay. That’s a relief. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-rachael-dolezal-vs-caitlyn-jenner-is-being-transgendered-more-than-a-state-of-mind/723452/34 "2015-06-25T21:13:53Z")
See, now, that would have been a great place to list some of these stubborn gauntlets you’re so worried about. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-rachael-dolezal-vs-caitlyn-jenner-is-being-transgendered-more-than-a-state-of-mind/723452/35 "2015-06-25T21:19:21Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Yes, I was thinking along these lines. If gender in sports is a matter of declaration, even if it’s honest, it will be the end of XX/physiologically female athletes winning any medal or competition at all. Yes, but maybe that’s okay. I have no chance of breaking any sports records, but somehow I carry on. High school sports should be open to anyone with the desire to play. Maybe the A team usually ends up being all boys, but with a B, C, D, etc. open, everyone has the chance to participate. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-rachael-dolezal-vs-caitlyn-jenner-is-being-transgendered-more-than-a-state-of-mind/723452/36 "2015-06-25T21:42:37Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > See, now, that would have been a great place to list some of these stubborn gauntlets you’re so worried about. Most sports are divided into male and female divisions. Could he possibly have meant that, do ya think? I’m sure you can see how a girls’ soccer team may be dominated by the girl who had the physiological advantage of typical male muscular development. Isn’t that why the division is made in the first place? Now the next-best girl who would have been the team star isn’t. Now she doesn’t get a scholarship she might have gotten, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-rachael-dolezal-vs-caitlyn-jenner-is-being-transgendered-more-than-a-state-of-mind/723452/37 "2015-06-25T21:45:38Z")
So the fact that 99% of women never compete seriously in sports means it doesn’t matter that no women will ever chalk up a win again. I guess that’s not a gauntlet, it’s a lovely evening glove. Which anyone, of any gender, would be thrilled to wear, I am sure. If my intimating that there are issues here that go beyond the internal, personal and semantic has bothered anyone, please do accept my sincere apologies. I must be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-rachael-dolezal-vs-caitlyn-jenner-is-being-transgendered-more-than-a-state-of-mind/723452/38 "2015-06-25T21:49:45Z")
> [@astro](#): > > This theme that Dolezal’s and Jenner’s representations are in essence pretty much the same thing (to the extent I have overheard these conversation taking pace) has gained an appreciable amount of steam in people’s casual conversations in workplaces, bars, lunchrooms, parties etc. > > Assuming you want to engage people holding these views with the opposite perspective how are they fundamentally different? Jenner has not, to my knowledge, denied having been born physically male or having presented herself to others as a boy/man for most of her life. I believe she’s said that she always considered herself to be a woman and that she has a female mind or something, but she hasn’t said that when she was born the doctor wrote an “F” instead of an “M” on her birth certificate. If Dolezal had been open all along about her white roots and said that although she was born white she has long considered herself “black on the inside” and wanted to be accepted as an African-American despite her ethnic background then I think people would have a lot more sympathy for her. Sure, she’d still be considered at best kind of a nut, but it’s not like Jenner’s coming out was received with nothing but acceptance either. Had Dolezal openly identified as “transracial” or “white on the outside, black on the inside” then I’m sure people would have laughed at her, but she probably wouldn’t be considered a psycho or scheming liar the way she is now. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-rachael-dolezal-vs-caitlyn-jenner-is-being-transgendered-more-than-a-state-of-mind/723452/39 "2015-06-25T22:01:15Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > So the fact that 99% of women never compete seriously in sports means it doesn’t matter that no women will ever chalk up a win again. > > I guess that’s not a gauntlet, it’s a lovely evening glove. Which anyone, of any gender, would be thrilled to wear, I am sure. > > If my intimating that there are issues here that go beyond the internal, personal and semantic has bothered anyone, please do accept my sincere apologies. I must be wrong. Well, maybe I’d be a world-class basketball player if the proper division was created for me. 5’2" and under nearsighted klutzes, here I come! ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-rachael-dolezal-vs-caitlyn-jenner-is-being-transgendered-more-than-a-state-of-mind/723452/40 "2015-06-25T22:14:07Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > Well, maybe I’d be a world-class basketball player if the proper division was created for me. 5’2" and under nearsighted klutzes, here I come! They could call it the Sour Grape league. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-rachael-dolezal-vs-caitlyn-jenner-is-being-transgendered-more-than-a-state-of-mind/723452.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-rachael-dolezal-vs-caitlyn-jenner-is-being-transgendered-more-than-a-state-of-mind/723452.md?page=3)