And you could start by doing your job and answering my questions, instead of ignoring it in lockstep with Czarcasm.
You’re right, nothing you could say would make be sufficient. It’s what you do that could be. And that *can *change minds.
Of late, it has been the mods have been responding with knee-jerk posts that straddle the “don’t be a jerk” rule that are far more our of line than anything to which they’re responding.
The sad part is, you folks seemingly aren’t capable of seeing it. Obviously the outrage from posters of a scale I haven’t seen before is recreational and coincidental in nature, and is in no way a reflection of the moderators performance.
I’m assuming it would be. I can’t think of any specific examples but during my long, long time here that’s what I’ve come to assume would happen in such a situation.
Thanks for starting this, NineToTheSky. Unfortunately, the thread seems to have turned into a discussion about discussions/debates in IMHO, which was a tiny fraction of the reason I started the OP that has since been closed.
I really don’t see how C K Dexter Haven could find insult in the thread. I can’t account for the “tone” in the replies, but nowhere in my posts did I belittle, demean, or otherwise insult Czarcasm as a person. The thread title that C K Dexter Haven was having a problem with was less “How DARE you continue being a mod when you suck so much?” but more of a “If moderating is such a chore, maybe you should take a break.” Although, I can see why the moderators can misinterpret that when there has been so much scrutiny for their actions lately.
Still, as much as I understand it, I can’t believe an administrator would fly off the handle like that.
As I clarified in the thread:
It was an effort to bring to Czarcasm’s attention that while individual apologies when he screws up is the right thing to do, what needs to happen is a reexamination of his moderating style.
Also:
I retract that statement. C K Dexter Haven’s response was clearly not respectful, and actually showed a whole lot of disdain for someone whose intention in starting the thread was to the tone of “If you’ve got personal issues that constrict your ability to moderate fairly, maybe you should reevaluate whether you want to spend your free time doing that.”
Yes, Grapefruit, it has been my intention for this to be about more than just the discussing/debating issue.
If TubaDiva really believes that we won’t accept anything they say, there really is a disconnect between posters and mods. Gary Wombat Robson in another thread has said that everything that needs to be said has been. While their posts were reasonable and considered, it demonstrates that we’re not getting each other - which is a great shame.
And at the risk of endlessly repeating myself: why won’t Czarcasm explain himself. Unless, of course, he believes that he has done that sufficiently. If that is the case, there is another disconnect.
This comment is actually a perfect illustration of what’s wrong with the attitude of some mods and admins around here.
I know it makes you feel better to think that some people are here for no other reason than to sling mud at the people who run this place. That way, when those people make complaints, you can dismiss or ignore them out of hand. But the fact is that criticisms don’t emerge in a vacuum, and the people who make them don’t do so simply to make your life difficult.
Right now, in another ATMB thread, quite a few people who have often been critical of moderator decisions are coming to the defense of moderators against what we see as unreasonable criticism. I’d be quite happy if i never felt the need to question a moderator decision.
Also, while you say “us” as if the mods and admins constituted a monolithic group, the fact is that some people are better at the job than others. If some mods receive a lot of complaints and others receive none, is it really possible to attribute this to nothing more than members who are looking to cause trouble? I mean, if we were just here to make trouble, wouldn’t we spread our love around a little more randomly?
And it’s not like these are vendettas based on personal or political difference either. As i’ve pointed out recently in another thread, as a poster i think Czarcasm is one of the good guys. We’re on the same page politically, and we’ve argued the same side in many debates in places like GD and the Pit. I just happen to think he’s made quite a few bad decisions as a mod.
Moderators have human frailties, human feelings, human passions. The people that work here care very much about the site and the community – that’s why they serve in the first place. Sometimes that can take you to places you never dreamed you’d be.
Most of the time it is easy to moderate this place – and it feels good to be here. Other times, not so much. Real life (and message board life) can make you stressed, cranky, exhausted, nervous. A situation that you would be able to smile through one day is the straw that broke the camel’s back right this damn minute. Again, we strive to do our best, but in those moments the execution is not perfect.
I’m not excusing the mistakes we make. They do happen and they shouldn’t but in the course of human events, they do. In our time here most of us have made some missteps. As I said earlier, we strive to do better and I hope we learn from the mistakes we made.
For some of our users that is not sufficient – they want, I dunno what they want. They want a different set of events. And when a situation has been explained and explained and they continue to revisit the issue it becomes obvious that there is nothing to be gained by reiteration.
Some of these calls for the moderator are not for clarification or rectification – it’s a veiled request to slap the moderator. When it gets to that place we don’t require the moderator to show up for their beating.
Once Czarcasm had explained himself he was asked to stop arguing his position. What more could he say that he hadn’t said? What more would be gained?
Sometimes we’re going to have to agree to disagree.
We most often speak in one voice – it would be inefficient and even more difficult to moderate this place if we didn’t have consensus. That does not make us “monolithic.” It makes us a group of people managing this site as best we can.
Speaking for myself, I have made calls for clarification to the moderator team here that were repeatedly ignored - and I kept them in email, so as not to cause a stir in ATMB. My honest assessment of the attitude of the mod team is ‘We are not to be questioned.’
Only the most egregious mistakes are ever taken back. And even in those cases, the attitude of the mod team is “Go away, this isn’t important.” right up until they see it’s not going away, then we get an apology and things die down.
I would ask you to consider that moderators can walk away from their mistakes, their bad days, their lapses in judgments. We mere posters get warned, suspended, banned for ours. I’d ask you to err on the side of restraint in issuing warnings–**Dex **, for example, seems to leap to interpret my sometimes-jocular tone as mean-spirited, abusive, etc. until corrected at length by others. I would hope he’d learn, not only about my tone but about the wisdom of leaping in general.
An individual warning is not a big deal. It’s a far cry from one lapse to multiple warnings, suspensions, or bans. You’ve been warned more than a few times about your tone, which ought to be a hint that not everybody perceives it as “jocular.” In other words, it’s not that you’re too hip for the room and everybody keeps misunderstanding you. It’s that you’re not communicating the way you think you are.
I agree we should think carefully before warning posters and that it’s important for all of us to moderate evenhandedly and not act out of frustration or vindictiveness. That’s our responsibility and it’s what posters here deserve. That being said, there’s been a lot more bile than necessary from everybody lately and some perspective is called for: we’re talking about moderation and warnings on a message board. I’m glad everybody cares about what goes on here and the staff wants to make manage things as best we can, but making a disagreement or a screwup into a major crisis is not the way to go. That applies to the staff as well as to everyone else.
Yes, like the current example. This is not the first time that I have gotten a warning that, in retrospect, got an “Oh, NOW I see–you’re joking. Sorry, my bad.”
Or are you claiming that this present instance is the first time this has ever happened to me?
Thanks, Marley23. This is the only response from a moderator/staff member that acknowledges that I wasn’t bitching for the sake of bitching, but pointing to the fact that everyone’s attitude should be kept in check. I know you understand this, but judging by TubaDiva’s response, I’m not sure everyone on your team is really getting what the disconnect is.
The warning wasn’t reversed because you were joking. It was reversed because what you said (‘You’re a bad moderator’) is allowed in this forum. So it didn’t matter if you were serious or joking.
I don’t know if it is the first time or not, and I’m not sure it’s relevant to the discussion at hand.
There’s a small minority of people here who do complain recreationally, and one of the unfortunate side effects is that sometimes legit complaints and questions get lost in the static. Intentions get misunderstood. I don’t think you were just bitching and I hope the discussion is going someplace more helpful now.
No, there’s nothing in there that says your attempted at humor was critical to the warning. He said you were being rude and that you couldn’t dodge that by saying it was all a joke. I’m not sure why we’re spending time on this issue at this point since the warning has been reversed and the status of your joke isn’t relevant to the rule.
pseudotriton ruber ruber, don’t you already have your own thread to discuss C K Dexter Haven’s warning and subsequent retraction?
Getting back to somewhat related matters… it is reassuring to know that some moderators do have the reconciliatory attitude… I just wish more moderators/admin staff were aware of this. And I hope I’m not beating a dead horse, but yeah, everyone can phrase things with less finger pointing. Outside of the BBQ Pit, of course.
Sorry.Seemed appropriate.