# Re: torture: Where is the religious "leadership"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 12, 2005, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-torture-where-is-the-religious-leadership/335274 "2005-12-12T17:04:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-torture-where-is-the-religious-leadership/335274/21 "2005-12-13T01:45:26Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > I’m a bit confused as to what you expect them to do - > Speak out against torture? They’re doing that. > Issue press releases against torture? They’re doing that. > Make formal organizational policies against torture? Yep. > > I also get the near constant “write your congressman/senator/the president and tell them that Christian Americans don’t want torture” emails from various political/religious groups. > > The messages are being sent - and the religious leaders should be called on the carpet if they were not. But I cannot understand why you seem to be blaming them when their voices are ignored. They are being ignored, it isn’t their fault. I can’t imagine we’ll see bishops rioting and looting to get their point across, though it would sure be different. It just doesn’t fit well with the official line about terrorizing the terrorists and “joining the Dark Side” as Cheney says we must. When some church group agrees with some gubmint, it gets played up. When some church group criticizes, they must just be “enemy aiders” and “war underminers”. I’ts all part of the fair and balanced press, and the vast librul media 'spiracy. Very hush hush 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-torture-where-is-the-religious-leadership/335274/22 "2005-12-13T02:12:55Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > **Evil Captor** , I’m confused. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I was under the impression that you generally thought that churches should largely butt out from politics. Again, I could be mistaken, but I could swear that you’ve weighed in before against spreading politics from the pulpit, especially as it relates to those “public morals” type of things. My position is that churches that are engaged in partisan political activity, like Falwell’s and Dobson’s clearly are, should lose their tax exempt status, because when they’re that partisan they’re no different than any other lobbying organization, and don’t deserve a tax break any more than any other lobbyist does. And if they wanna give up their tax exampt status they can be just as politically active as they like. In the present case, I’d say the churches could campaign against torture, but not agaisnt the Bush Administration. Just as the Catholic Bishops can campaign against abortion and birth control, but couldn’t, say, publicly announce that they’d refuse communion to John Kerry for being pro-choice. That would be crossing the line, that would. > [@](#): > > Now, it seems you’re taking the exactly opposite tact: the religious organizations are not involved ENOUGH in this particular political issue. I’m just pointing out that their relative inactivity on the torture issue is inconsistent. Abortion? Storm the capitol! Gambling? Throw the bums out if they won’t vote out way! Torture? Ah, let’s write up a nice press release. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-torture-where-is-the-religious-leadership/335274/23 "2005-12-13T05:30:44Z")
> [@](#): > > But it occurs to me that generally when big religious orgs want media play, they generally get it: witness the bishops who threatened to deny John Kerry communion during the election campaign. Didn’t see THEM getting ignored. And yet, the much larger number of bishops (including the president of the National Council of Catholic Bishops) who denied that the first group had the authority or the right to deny Kerry communion seem to have slid right under your radar. Perhaps the problem is not among the church folks but the media? Perhaps loud stories of individul cranks simply appeal more to news editors than actual declarations by bodies in council? Or, perhaps, you are simply attuned to listening for what you expect to hear? > [@](#): > > And look at the way the FCC took up the banner of the 50 or so folks who wrote to complain about Janet Jackson’s tit. Didn’t see THEM getting ignored. You are complaining against the churches because Bush’s FCC reacted swiftly to a tiny group that said what Bush and company wanted to hear? What does this have to do with anything in the OP? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-torture-where-is-the-religious-leadership/335274/24 "2005-12-13T05:33:59Z")
I’d also like to point out that the bishops who headlined the “deny Communion to abortion supporting politicians” were a very few individual bishops, not the USCCB as a whole. Not even the USCCB as a majority. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-torture-where-is-the-religious-leadership/335274/25 "2005-12-13T08:40:14Z")
…your question sounds surprisingly like the “how come Muslim Clerics haven’t condemned terrorism” line of arguement. The answer, as shown by those above me and in threads like [this one,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=147167&highlight=clerics+condemn)is that they have-just not to the standard that you desire. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-torture-where-is-the-religious-leadership/335274/26 "2005-12-13T08:41:59Z")
Well, as a Catholic I’m pretty aware of multiple leaders of my Church speaking out against torture. And honestly, I don’t know what major campaigns against porn you’re talking about. I know Churches in general oppose porn, but I haven’t seen anti-porn campaigns on the front page of the Washington Post. Now, I have seen campaigns for decency in public media (which doesn’t classify as porn) get some major media play. One of the big things is there’s actually public policy that can be meaningfully modified fairly easily when it comes to FCC regulations and the like. There’s really not a whole lot that can be done about torture. Any new laws would probably have only vague effects since most alleged incidents of torture are happening in areas of “vacuous” jurisdiction and in high secrecy. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-torture-where-is-the-religious-leadership/335274/27 "2005-12-13T13:17:46Z")
Resolutions and action alerts are all well and good, but they do seem to pass under the national radar. I’d be more impressed if they organized mass demonstrations against torture, but I can hardly demand of others what I don’t do myself. The issue might be that it’s hard to get people fired up about protecting the rights of suspected terrorists. Never mind that many of these people being tortured are not terrorists, the public perception is that they’re getting what they deserve. It’s a lot to ask of leadership to overcome that perception. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-torture-where-is-the-religious-leadership/335274/28 "2005-12-13T15:24:19Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > I’m just pointing out that their relative inactivity on the torture issue is inconsistent. Abortion? Storm the capitol! Gambling? Throw the bums out if they won’t vote out way! Torture? Ah, let’s write up a nice press release. Fair enough on your views on churches’ political activity. But you realize that it is not the Catholic Bishops that organize the anti-abortion marches on Washington, it is dedicated pro-life groups. If you search the [National Council of Churches](http://www.ncccusa.org/welcome/sitemap.html) website, you’ll find one reference to pornography, but 29 news releases of various sorts on torture. What you seem to be doing is judging churches by the measure of conservative political activist groups, just because both happen to be religious. That’s an unfair comparison. By this measure, you’d be led to silly conclusions, like Quakers are not genuinely pacifist because they don’t garner as much attention as anti-war groups like ANSWER. Political groups exist only to get attention, but political efforts by religious groups are understandibly subordinated to a higher calling, shall we say. In short, I think you’re comparing apples and oranges. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-torture-where-is-the-religious-leadership/335274/29 "2005-12-13T16:04:31Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > And yet, the much larger number of bishops (including the president of the National Council of Catholic Bishops) who denied that the first group had the authority or the right to deny Kerry communion seem to have slid right under your radar. No, not at all. They got some media play, too, IIRC, mostly as a line in a story running, “But the National Council of Catholic Bishops has denied that Bishop Blahblahblah has the authority to deny Kerry communion.” As part of the larger “No communion for Kerry story” in other words. > [@](#): > > Perhaps the problem is not among the church folks but the media? Perhaps loud stories of individul cranks simply appeal more to news editors than actual declarations by bodies in council? It could well be part of the media’s general inattention to the usual – church groups being opposed to torture is very much Dog Bites Man kinda stories, I’m sure. But ISTM that the big, organized church groups generally know how to grab a few headlines when they want to. Frex, via demonstrations, as BobLibDem suggest. There are also several TV venues that are owned and operated by religious groups, I bet they could do a hell of a lot more than they are doing. > [@](#): > > Or, perhaps, you are simply attuned to listening for what you expect to hear? The reason I posted was that I was surprised that I had heard nothing in the mainstream media. I WASN’T hearing what I expected to hear, which was churches freaking out about the US getting into the torture biz. > [@](#): > > You are complaining against the churches because Bush’s FCC reacted swiftly to a tiny group that said what Bush and company wanted to hear? What does this have to do with anything in the OP? You’re right, Powell and his boys definitely would have reacted to a single note handwritten in crayon on soiled brown paper bag on that one. Irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-torture-where-is-the-religious-leadership/335274/30 "2005-12-13T16:53:38Z")
I agree with **Evil Captor** with the fact that the churches coulda’ done more, but I think the bulk of the blame on this issue lies not with what the churches, but with people’s perceptions of them. Slavery, oppression of women, discrimination against non-Christians, all have been seen as being supported by the churches. I can’t tell if it due to public perception, or to the actions of churches in the past, but there is a link in the heads of many people between their religions (and by extension, their religious leaders) and the state’s being correct in regards to policy “X”. “How can you say god would disapprove of Iraq? That’s un-American!" ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-torture-where-is-the-religious-leadership/335274/31 "2005-12-13T22:26:07Z")
This recent news story might be relevant: [http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051213/ap\_on\_re\_eu/vatican\_peace\_obstacles](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051213/ap_on_re_eu/vatican_peace_obstacles) ---
**Author:** ![BarnOwl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e95f7d/32.png) [@BarnOwl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BarnOwl)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2005, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-torture-where-is-the-religious-leadership/335274/32 "2005-12-14T13:41:31Z")
> [@Neurotik](#): > > It’s a rightwing administration so they won’t criticize too loudly. Otherwise the Bush Administration might not appoint the proper justice to implement their semi-theological agenda. Or revoke their tax exemptions. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2005, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-torture-where-is-the-religious-leadership/335274/33 "2005-12-14T14:29:38Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Fair enough on your views on churches’ political activity. But you realize that it is not the Catholic Bishops that organize the anti-abortion marches on Washington, it is dedicated pro-life groups. > If you search the [National Council of Churches](http://www.ncccusa.org/welcome/sitemap.html) website, you’ll find one reference to pornography, but 29 news releases of various sorts on torture. > > What you seem to be doing is judging churches by the measure of conservative political activist groups, just because both happen to be religious. That’s an unfair comparison. By this measure, you’d be led to silly conclusions, like Quakers are not genuinely pacifist because they don’t garner as much attention as anti-war groups like ANSWER. Political groups exist only to get attention, but political efforts by religious groups are understandibly subordinated to a higher calling, shall we say. > > In short, I think you’re comparing apples and oranges. NO, I’m not comparing apples to oranges, I’m saying I haven’t seen much about church protests over torture in the media. The Vatican comment about torture being unacceptable that broke yesterday (I heard it on NPR, and it’s cited in Yahoo News, don’t know if the networks or radio picked it up) is the first I’ve heard of it. Guess the Pope follows my posts pretty closely. We’ll see if other religious groups follow along. ---
**Author:** ![Scooby-the-Scot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Scooby-the-Scot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scooby-the-Scot)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2005, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-torture-where-is-the-religious-leadership/335274/34 "2005-12-19T15:33:38Z")
I think the reason that the church is opposed to torture is that THEY learned during the inquisition that it’s not that reliable! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-torture-where-is-the-religious-leadership/335274.md?page=1)