# Reading about the "knockout game" makes me feel old **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 21, 2014, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reading-about-the-knockout-game-makes-me-feel-old/679373 "2014-01-21T16:53:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reading-about-the-knockout-game-makes-me-feel-old/679373/41 "2014-01-21T19:41:12Z")
> [@Karrius](#): > > Marley’s first post: > > Please point out to me where he brought race into it. He did not explicitly bring race into it. But the claim that this particular issue was overblown is generally a claim that it was overblown with racial overtones. As evidence, I note that all 3 cites that Marley introduced in support of his claim, such as they were, were about the racial angle. That is why I referenced Marley’s cites in my prior email - I notice you conveniently managed to ignore this. > [@](#): > > You were the first one to bring up the racial angle. That is fact. Absolutely, 100%, undeniable fact. And yet you accuse others of doing so first. Why? It is obsolutely untrue that I accused others of bringing up the racial angle first. 100% undeniable fact. And yet you make this false claim anyway. Why? > [@Boogly](#): > > I apologize if I am incorrect. It seemed to me that you were asking for cites in post #5. I was not. I was responding to someone else’s request for cites, and explaining why I didn’t feel compelled to offer any. > [@Marley23](#): > > Not a meaningful number. Like my earlier post, I think this is actually very obvious. You’re avoiding answering. What does “not a meaningful number” mean? ---
**Author:** ![Karrius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71c47a/32.png) [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reading-about-the-knockout-game-makes-me-feel-old/679373/42 "2014-01-21T19:45:09Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > He did not explicitly bring race into it. But the claim that this particular issue was overblown is generally a claim that it was overblown with racial overtones. So basically you managed to read into something that wasn’t there, and then falsely accuse others of reading into things that wern’t there. YOU were the one who first brought race into this. _End of story_. Refusing to admit this just means you are being blatantly dishonest, and everyone can see that. God dammit I still don’t understand why all the fucking white supremacists are allowed on these forums despite the “don’t be a jerk” rule, and honestly they really make me just want to leave the SDMB for good. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reading-about-the-knockout-game-makes-me-feel-old/679373/43 "2014-01-21T19:49:14Z")
> [@Karrius](#): > > So basically you managed to read into something that wasn’t there, and then falsely accuse others of reading into things that wern’t there. There is none so blind as one who will not see. I’ve pointed several times to evidence that it was there. If you ignore it, that doesn’t change it. > [@](#): > > God dammit I still don’t understand why all the fucking white supremacists are allowed on these forums despite the “don’t be a jerk” rule, and honestly they really make me just want to leave the SDMB for good. Oh, don’t do that. That would be letting evil triumph. We need for the Good People like yourself to stick around and fight these monsters and their Evil Racism. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reading-about-the-knockout-game-makes-me-feel-old/679373/44 "2014-01-21T19:50:16Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > He did not explicitly bring race into it. I didn’t bring race into it at all. > [@](#): > > But the claim that this particular issue was overblown is generally a claim that it was overblown with racial overtones. That happens to be true, but I didn’t imply it or say it. You made an assumption and I take no responsibility for your actions. You brought up race, period. However I applaud your unintentional comedy throughout this thread. > [@](#): > > What does “not a meaningful number” mean? Is anyone other than **Fotheringay-Phipps** having any difficulty understanding what I said? ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reading-about-the-knockout-game-makes-me-feel-old/679373/45 "2014-01-21T19:54:46Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Is anyone other than **Fotheringay-Phipps** having any difficulty understanding what I said? Not at all. From the evidence shown so far, it looks to have happened 20-50 times or so in the last 22 years. I’d call that a non-meaningful number when you’re talking about simple assault in a country of 300 million people. (If we were talking about atomic bombs or something then it would be a meaningful number, in this case…not at all.) ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reading-about-the-knockout-game-makes-me-feel-old/679373/46 "2014-01-21T19:55:48Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That happens to be true, but I didn’t imply it or say it. You made an assumption and I take no responsibility for your actions. You brought up race, period. FTR, I have no problems being the guy who brought up race in this thread. Also FTR, it is true that I interpreted your first post as being about race. Correctly, too. But I didn’t say anything about the racial angle as regards to you specifically until you started talking about “statistically meaningful”, at which point it became relevant. > [@](#): > > Is anyone other than **Fotheringay-Phipps** having any difficulty understanding what I said? No, I understand full well what you said. I explained what it means earlier. What I’m having difficulty with is pinning you down as you weasel around it. ---
**Author:** ![Mithras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f04885/32.png) [@Mithras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mithras)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reading-about-the-knockout-game-makes-me-feel-old/679373/47 "2014-01-21T19:57:50Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Is anyone other than **Fotheringay-Phipps** having any difficulty understanding what I said? Not me, but I think he’s asking an interesting question when you think about right-wing media panics. “Meaningful number” means something completely different when they’re talking about gun control (any amount less than the number of drownings is okay) than when they’re discussing welfare/voter fraud (a single abuse is all that’s needed to justify drastic measures). I guess that despite its violent nature, the knockout game is more like welfare fraud than shootings. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reading-about-the-knockout-game-makes-me-feel-old/679373/48 "2014-01-21T19:59:35Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I explained what it means earlier. What I’m having difficulty with is pinning you down as you weasel around it. I’m sorry you’re having difficulty. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reading-about-the-knockout-game-makes-me-feel-old/679373/49 "2014-01-21T20:01:10Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m sorry you’re having difficulty. I’m finding it rather amusing, if it makes you feel any better. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reading-about-the-knockout-game-makes-me-feel-old/679373/50 "2014-01-21T20:02:43Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m sorry you’re having difficulty. No big deal. I pretty much expect this type of thing with certain types of issues. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reading-about-the-knockout-game-makes-me-feel-old/679373/51 "2014-01-21T20:07:18Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > I’m finding it rather amusing, if it makes you feel any better. Don’t worry. Like **Fotheringay-Phipps** ’ interest in cites, my sorrow is only a figure of speech. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reading-about-the-knockout-game-makes-me-feel-old/679373/52 "2014-01-21T20:15:26Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > What does “not a meaningful number” mean? Personally, I use the “Index Card Rule”. Over a single year, if you are able to list the victims, by name, on the back of an index card, it’s probably not a meaningful “trend”. Exceptions to the rule can be made for certain circumstances. For instance, wrongful executions. If 50 people were executed, and 20 of them wrongfully executed, the fact that you can fit 20 names on an index card does not make the wrongful execution issue trivial. So, when someone says that the US Gov’t is trampling on right XYZ, and the complainers can point to 5 people who had their rights trampled in the last year, I’m not really going to think of it as a major issue. Or someone says that voter fraud is a problem and they drudge up a half a dozen cases over the last ten years… yawn. Same thing here. This is not a “thing”. It’s not a trend, it’s not an epidemic. It’s just an random jerk punching someone for no good reason. ---
**Author:** ![Boogly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Boogly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boogly)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reading-about-the-knockout-game-makes-me-feel-old/679373/53 "2014-01-21T20:19:34Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Until I get a cite in the other direction, I’m going to let my uncited claim stand against the equally uncited claims of anyone else. > > I know I’ve read about about 7 attacks in the NY area alone and probably about twice that many elsewhere in the country. That’s the lower bound. I’m assuming there are a lot more that I’ve not read about. You said that until you get cites that this is being down played you would remain uncited. Marley brought up cites and I pointed out that Snopes calls this false. Where are your cites that would lead you to believe this is being down played? If the issue is the meaningless number then I would ask you at what level does the percentage become meaningful? I would bet that there are many other issues that are far more news worthy. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reading-about-the-knockout-game-makes-me-feel-old/679373/54 "2014-01-21T20:56:46Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Personally, I use the “Index Card Rule”. Over a single year, if you are able to list the victims, by name, on the back of an index card, it’s probably not a meaningful “trend”. > > Exceptions to the rule can be made for certain circumstances. For instance, wrongful executions. If 50 people were executed, and 20 of them wrongfully executed, the fact that you can fit 20 names on an index card does not make the wrongful execution issue trivial. > > So, when someone says that the US Gov’t is trampling on right XYZ, and the complainers can point to 5 people who had their rights trampled in the last year, I’m not really going to think of it as a major issue. Or someone says that voter fraud is a problem and they drudge up a half a dozen cases over the last ten years… yawn. > > Same thing here. This is not a “thing”. It’s not a trend, it’s not an epidemic. It’s just an random jerk punching someone for no good reason. For the most part I agree with this. Although I think the fact that there’s apparently been a big increase in recent years, the fact that it’s being practiced by people in different cities who are aware of the existence of the “game”, and the fact that it’s being spread in social media makes it a bit more of a “trend” and “thing” than would otherwise be the case. There’s a difference between a thug who decides to beat someone up for fun and a thug who knows (or thinks) there’s this game out there where we beat people up for fun, and I think the latter is a bigger concern than the first. That said, I agree – and agreed upthread - that it doesn’t appear to be any sort of epidemic or crisis, especially as regards to the nation as a whole. What’s not true is what Marley claimed in his initial post, that it’s just a couple of isolated incidents. There’s a lot of room between a couple of isolated incidents and an epidemic or crisis. And something which has had 20 – 50 incidents (and it would appear based on cites posted to this thread that there have been at least 15 in the last year) is something that is of legitimate interest. And the reason people are falling over themselves in this thread to try to deny this is because of PC considerations. > [@Boogly](#): > > You said that until you get cites that this is being down played you would remain uncited. Marley brought up cites and I pointed out that Snopes calls this false. > > Where are your cites that would lead you to believe this is being down played? I said earlier that whether something is being downplayed is a matter of perception and is subjective and does not lend itself to cites. My discussion of cites was about the number of incidents, and my position on this has been born out by several cites in this thread (including Marley’s). > [@](#): > > If the issue is the meaningless number then I would ask you at what level does the percentage become meaningful? My point here was that “meaningful” means different things in different contexts, and the number that would be meaningful would depend on the context. Regardless, the issue of “meaningful” is about something that Marley brought up, not anything I brought up. I only seized on it because it suggested the broader perspective with which people like Marley feel the need to view this issue. > [@](#): > > I would bet that there are many other issues that are far more news worthy. Very possible. OTOH it’s not like no other news is being reported. But more importantly, what gets reported on the news is what interests people, not what’s “newsworthy”. There are a lot of things more newsworthy than goings on at the Kardashians, but there you have it. Personally, I think this is something that would and should interest people. And I think the pushback is mostly because of the perceptions of some people that it plays to stereotypes of black youth as being thugs. As evidenced by this thread. If the races were reversed it would be a national calamity, but even if it was just white people attacking other white people it would get a lot of attention. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reading-about-the-knockout-game-makes-me-feel-old/679373/55 "2014-01-21T21:08:54Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > There’s a lot of room between a couple of isolated incidents and an epidemic or crisis. And something which has had 20 – 50 incidents (and it would appear based on cites posted to this thread that there have been at least 15 in the last year) is something that is of legitimate interest. And the reason people are falling over themselves in this thread to try to deny this is because of PC considerations. I guarantee the media isn’t interested because 15 assaults in the last year is significant. It’s because “knockout game” is a scary bogey man who will draw viewers. Even so, I have a second guarantee for you. Giving this “game” media attention is much much more likely to cause impressionable assholes to try it out, than it is to prevent any attacks. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reading-about-the-knockout-game-makes-me-feel-old/679373/56 "2014-01-21T21:14:31Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I guarantee the media isn’t interested because 15 assaults in the last year is significant. It’s because “knockout game” is a scary bogey man who will draw viewers. These are not mutually exclusive. > [@](#): > > Even so, I have a second guarantee for you. Giving this “game” media attention is much much more likely to cause impressionable assholes to try it out, than it is to prevent any attacks. Hard to say. It would make more people try it out, but it would also pressure the police to try to stop it, and probably up the sentences as well. (It would also motivate people like [Al Sharpton](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rev-al-sharpton/knockout-games_b_4340317.html) to condemn it, to the extent that he has any influence.) ---
**Author:** ![Boogly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Boogly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boogly)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reading-about-the-knockout-game-makes-me-feel-old/679373/57 "2014-01-21T21:31:09Z")
I don’t know if there is an increase of people sucker punching people in years but in my opinion I think it is more of a case of media reporting such occurrences. Since the media created this game it is in their interest to report when people get sucker punched. It may be splitting hairs but I don’t see a difference in someone sucker punching someone for fun and another who thinks it is a game and again does it for fun. A difference could be that as a game a person may need to keep score somehow. Again, a game created by the media. What about this do you think that this issue should interest people? What aspects of this would push this above and over what you would consider news? ---
**Author:** ![August\_West](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/august_west/32/18069_2.png) [@August\_West](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/August_West)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reading-about-the-knockout-game-makes-me-feel-old/679373/58 "2014-01-21T21:42:42Z")
Sorry Fungy, you’re wrong on this one. As far as I can tell, you’re the only person to have inferred anything racial about Marley’s post. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reading-about-the-knockout-game-makes-me-feel-old/679373/59 "2014-01-21T21:54:26Z")
> [@Boogly](#): > > What about this do you think that this issue should interest people? Again, see the OP. In addition, there’s an apparent implication that in this case it’s a known game, on whatever scale. > [@](#): > > What aspects of this would push this above and over what you would consider news? Nothing. You seem to be raising the bar here. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reading-about-the-knockout-game-makes-me-feel-old/679373/60 "2014-01-21T22:07:06Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Is anyone other than **Fotheringay-Phipps** having any difficulty understanding what I said? I am not. The assailant in the OP was black, therefore downplay the attacks and deny that they have any significance, along with this kind of shit - > [@](#): > > His point is that black people are terrible, and anything terrible you hear about them should be assumed to be true, without the need for any reflection or investigation. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reading-about-the-knockout-game-makes-me-feel-old/679373.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reading-about-the-knockout-game-makes-me-feel-old/679373.md?page=4)