Reagan or Clinton?

Reagan did exactly the same thing in 1982 (or thereabouts). He refused to sign off on the budget, effectively shutting the government down for a few days.

The difference is that Clinton was treated like a hero for doing it, while Reagan was attacked savagely by the press for playing ‘brinksmanship’.

As I said before, you can’t blame or give a president credit for everything that happens in his term, especially in terms of economics. For one thing, the first year of his term is spent under the budget of the last president. For another, the economy has a lot of inertia, and it can often take years for the total effects of a government decision to filter through. So it’s often hard to place cause-and-effect. And finally, the vast majority of the economy has nothing at all to do with what the President says or does.

This is what gives partisans the wiggle room to come to opposite conclusions about who was responsible for what.

But in other areas, we CAN directly assign credit or blame to the president. The ‘malaise’ that had settled over the U.S. was directly caused by Jimmy Carter, who spent his four years in office wringing his hands and making grave pronouncements about the state of the country and the world. He made his famous ‘malaise’ speech which put a label on it. The reason Reagan was elected President in a landslide had far more to do with his sunny outlook, optimism and humor than with any specific policy proposals he had. And he DID restore confidence to the American people.

Terrorism was rampant when Reagan took power, and almost nonexistant when he left. This was simply because people like Carter were always giving way to terrorists and letting them get what they wanted. Reagan let it be known that there would be no negotiation, and he backed it up during the Achille Lauro crisis, when American jets forced the terrorists out of the sky.

The Soviet Union had invaded Afghanistan, and were engaged in destabilizing countries throughout Africa and South America. Reagan’s hard-line stance put an end to that.

And yes, he is largely responsible for ending the cold war. The Soviet Union might have fallen anyway, but perhaps not for decades. No less an authority than Mikhail Gorbachev himself gives Reagan the bulk of the credit. Part of it was SDI, which the Soviets couldn’t match, but part of it was also Reagan’s rhetoric. He attacked the Soviet Union at every opportunity, calling them an Evil Empire etc. The result was dissatisfaction in the client states, which the Soviets responded to by putting a moderate in power to soften their image.

Once Reagan had a person in power he could actually talk to, he hammered on him relentlessly (“Mr. Gorbachev - TEAR DOWN THIS WALL!”). The combination of political pressure, economic pressure, and military pressure through SDI spelled the end. So yes, give credit to Gorbachev for doing his part, but give Reagan credit for getting Gorbachev into power in the first place, and for pushing Gorbachev into doing the right thing.

Compare & contrast:

Reagan - gets us into a questionable intervention in Lebanon, where, as one Marine put it, their counterattack when they were being attacked was to build bigger walls of sandbags. After 250 of them get killed, they withdraw.

Clinton - gets us into a questionable intervention in Bosnia, relentlessly attacks from the air with NATO support, and wins without a single casualty.

Any questions?

Just one: Exactly how many foreign embassies did the U.S. bomb during the Reagan administration?

Well, if you’re going to play that game, exactly how many foreign jetliners did the U.S. shoot down during the Clinton administration?

July 3, 1988: USS Vincennes shoots down Iran Air flight 655, killing all 290 people aboard. Reagon was Prez at that time.

Both the Chinese embassy bombing and the Iranian jetliner downing are equally the responsibility of the president of the time.

Bill

Dear me.

From lissener and Gadarene:

Try this page from HHS. The income level defined as poverty increased, not decreased, so if Reagan were trying to define the poor out of existence, as I think I understand you as saying, he was headed in the wrong direction.

When Reagan took office in 1980, the poverty rate was 13.5%. When he left office, it was 13.1%. Check these figures from the Census Bureau.

And Kyla said:

This is exactly the impression you were meant to be left with by the media, who hated Reagan and were deeply frustrated by their inability to destroy him, as they did Carter and Ford.

Regards to all who have posted.

sigh

On. Bended. Knee. The. Press. And. The. Reagan. Presidency.

Please unpack your little media myths by indulging in some actual scholarship about the matter, okay?

This is truly a bad analogy.

The Vincennes was a warship in a warzone. The flight path of the jetliner made it appear to be on an attack approach. The decision to fire on the plane was made by the ship’s Captain.

The bombing of the Chinese embassy, whether accidental or not, was a direct result of the administration dropping ordinance in civilian areas.

Comparing and contrasting (as you suggested) here’s another fine example of the U.S. military under the current administration:

“Consider that in Kosovo 37,000 aerial sorties were required to destroy what Gen. Wesley Clark claimed were 93 tanks, 53 armored fighting vehicles, and 389 artillery pieces; that these comprised, respectively, 8%, 7%, and 4% of such targets, leaving the Yugoslav army virtually intact; and that impeccable sources in the Pentagon state that Yugoslav use of decoys put the actual number of destroyed tanks, for example, in the single digits.”

Thanks to This Copyrighted Article

from: http://www.fair.org/extra/best-of-extra/kal007-iranair655.html

from: http://navy.rotc.psu.edu/pub/classes/302/notes/20note.html

[quote}At about 0940, the Vincennes and Elmer Montgomery crossed the 12-mile line into Iranian territorial waters. There is no mention of this crossing in the unclassified version of the official report of the investigation.
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From the data extracted from the Vincennes’ Aegis combat system, the Iranian gunboats did not turn toward the cruiser until 0942–after Captain Rogers had been given
permission to fire. Time 0942 is the vital piece of information that destroys the myth that the Vincennes and Elmer Montgomery were under direct attack by a swarm of gunboats.

At about 0943, the Vincennes’ forward five-inch gun mount commenced to lob shells at the Iranian gunboats.
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From the videotape recorded on Vincennes’ bridge that day, the gunboats, seen as mere specks in the distance, returned fire; they did not initiate the shooting. The Iranian
gunboats’ light weapons were greatly outranged by the heavier ordnance on the Vincennes, and the spent shells from the Iranians’ weapons fell harmlessly as a brief line of
splashes in the water, hundreds of yards short of the Vincennes, and fully 45 seconds after the Vincennes’ first rounds were fired.
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According to Admiral Fogarty’s report of investigation, “The data from USS Vincennes’ tapes, information from USS Sides and reliable intelligence information corroborate the fact that TN 4131 was on a normal commercial air flight plan profile … squawking Mode 111 6760, on a continuous ascent in altitude from take-off at Bandar Abbas to shoot down.” [/quote]

see also: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5260/vince.html

Bill

SouthernStyle

Willie’s response non-withstanding (as it refutes your argument in a slightly different way than I am about to), I would like to take issue with this:

Now correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the entire premise of the air war was that any military-related buildings in Belgrade were valid targets. Since the maps the operation was planned from were wrong (blame the CIA for that one, I think?), as far as the military knew, the embassy was a valid target.

The very fact that it is an accident is what makes this exactly like the Vincennes situation. In both cases, the military wrongly thought a civilian target was actually a military target. In both cases, the target was wiped out, accidentally.

How is dropping ordinance in civilian areas any different from lobbing ordinance at civilian vehicles?

Actually, I think the fault in the Vincennes incident was traced to design flaws in the Aegis missile system, which makes it pretty much irrelevant to any political debate.

Somewhere in there, my point got missed.
Reagan’s been given credit, over and over again, for the downfall of the USSR.
First off: can anyone say Solidarity?
Secondly: Pope John Paul II, anyone?
Thirdly: anyone for a Velvet Revolution?
Fourthly: we’re talking about an economic system that has exactly three choices: continue to go into hock to keep the whole house of cards up (Eastern Europe and USSR before the fall), starve out your people (North Korea today, China under Mao), or compromise and let capitalism in (Lenin’s NEP, China today).
In other words, how much Reagan really had to do with the downfall of the USSR is debatable in the extreme.
Lebanon and Kosovo (I said Bosnia at first, sorry) were, by contrast, direct decisions of the respective Presidents involved. One was a total failure resulting in the useless deaths of highly trained Marines fully capable of taking the battle to their enemies if given even half a chance, whereas the other was about as complete a success as you could ask for. As I write this, Milosevic is gone. (Just as a sidebar, we still have to deal with Saddam Hussein.)

On the one hand, we have before us a President who talked up the military every chance he had but let them down when it counted, on the other hand we have a President who is utterly despised by that same military but who let them succeed when it counted.
One talked a good game, the other made the decision, lined up all of the support he could get, and then got out of the way of the guys who needed to get the job done on the ground. Which is exactly what a good executive is supposed to do.

Your point didn’t get missed; it was invalid.

Reagan won the Cold War because

  • the economic boom created by Reaganomics showed once and for all that the Soviet Union could not compete with the West.

  • The Strategic Defense Initiative showed that they couldn’t compete militarily either.

I know the media and Democrats hated SDI and screamed loudly and often that it could never work. The Soviets disagreed. Gorbachev offered Reagan everything he ever wanted in a missile treaty (in Iceland) if he would give up Star Wars. Reagan refused.

It is ridiculously common for people to say now that the fall of the Soviet Union was inevitable. Problem was, it didn’t happen until Reagan stood up to them.

The downfall of the Maoist government in the PRC is inevitable, too, but it will not happen under Clinton.

And if you supported the Marines trying to bring ‘peace’ to Lebanon, you lack any understanding of the situation in the Middle East.

The only reason we were able to win the Gulf War was because Reagan rebuilt the military to the point that we could bring it off. Contrast the centrality of our oil supply to the fall of some tinpot dictator where Yugoslavia used to be, and you get a clearer picture of who understands strategy and who bombs Iraq to try to keep from getting impeached.

So let’s see if I’ve got this straight…

The man who couldn’t even manage a minor intervention in a third rate country, having sent troops off to their deaths because he violated every principal that Colin Powell put forth for such interventions (clear mission, adequate support) was primarily responsible for bringing down our principal military competitor of the second half of the twentieth century.

Sounds logical to me.

At least one. I am thinking here of the French embassy during an embarassing and ineffective airstrike against Libya:
http://www.alternatives.com/library/pol/polintel/c53.txt

This statement by Sam Stone is blatantly false. There were major investigations into Reagan negotiations with terrorists, IRAN-contra? you remember that, don’t you? I’m also thinking of the attack on the World Trade Center, uh…Pan Am 103. While the state department claims terrorism has fallen since 1987, terrorism was hardly “almost nonexistant” by 1988, and if Reagan deserves any credit for this, he certainly deserves blame for the rash of terrorist attacks in 1987 as a retaliation for the Libya bombings.

Foreign entanglements aside for a moment -

Has the Clinton administration set this country on a long term path to prosperity? Was he just building on the strong foundation built by Reagan?

Was the ecomomic boom during Reagan’s term all smoke and mirrors? Or was the recession that followed a necessary step toward a long-term solution (as Sam Stone states)?

Actually the Soviet Union didn’t need Reagan to show them they were failing. They’ve known it for years. Hell, during Kchrushev’s time, his own son, Sergei Khruschev (a good friend of a professor of mine) actually said how terrified everyone was to go to war with the US and how they KNEW their military was inadequate.

Just had to respond to the presentation of Reagan as the great communicator, reinstilling a sense of national pride. I entered college in 78, majored in PolSci, Int’l Relations, and took several PolSci grad classes before leaving with a law degree, but without completing my Masters, 8 years later. So I was kind of interested in politics from 78-86. We geeks and our professors would actually have parties to watch the State of the Union speeches and election night coverage. And I remember watching Reagan’s speeches and being dumbstruck. Or perhaps I should say, stricken at how sdumb they sounded. I couldn’t imagine who he was aiming at, with all that “mansion on a hill” crap. I found it insulting. And I considered it an embarrassment to have Reagan represent my country in the international arena. I often felt sorry for other world leaders trying to deal with him on an intellectual level.

Note I am not defending Clinton here. Nor am I denying that several philosophical positions tend to bias me towards the Democrat side. Nor am I denying that a good percentage of my fellow students and professors at the time swayed left. Another observation, around 84-86 when I was in grad school and teaching Speech Comm and PolSci classes, I was stricken at the strong support for Reagan by incoming freshman and sophomores only 4-5 years my junior. Of course, I also recall making a reference to Barry Goldwater in class and not a single kid had any idea who I was talking about. I got the impression that they were primarily rich kids from the Chicago suburbs, echoing the views of their mommies and daddies while they went to school on their dime.

I am merely observing, here, that Reagan’s “great communication” struck me then and now as intellectually insulting. But it seems as though I was and am in the minority. What the hell. Advertising works. I wish I had a lower IQ!

I see… You and your left-wing buddies didn’t like Reagan, mainly because you have a really high IQ.

Other students in the same University DID like Reagan, but they HAD to have been spoiled rich kids. There’s no other possible explanation.

Of course, the fact that he was re-elected in a landslide means the citizenry of the U.S. is really dumb too, right?

As for other leaders trying to deal with Reagan on an intellectual level, why don’t you try reading some of them? Read what Gorbachev has to say about Reagan. Read what Thatcher had to say about him. Or go read some of his political enemies. Some of them may have hated him, some may have loved him, but none of them considered him a lightweight.

And if you think he was an idiot hiding behind a bunch of advisors, I suggest you go read some accounts of his private summits with Gorbachev. Reagan tossed him around like a rag doll, almost always getting exactly what the U.S. wanted while giving up very little in return.

As for his speeches… In your PolySci classes, did you manage to study political rhetoric? Did you read any other famous political speeches from the past? I’ve got news for you - they are not written like scholarly papers. The best political speeches use very simple concepts, usually repeated over and over again, to hammer home larger themes.

The arrogance of people like you never ceases to amaze me. You’ve got all the answers, anyone who feels otherwise is stupid, spoiled, or evil. Bah.

Gee Mr. Stone. You make me glad I included all the personal info to emphasize the entirely subjective and quite limited scope of my comments. All I intended to observe was that Mr. Reagan’s particular type of political rhetoric was not effective upon me when I heard it at a time that I was far more interested in politics than I am today. Just one more thing I apparently see quite differently than so many of my countrymen. I also stick by my assumption that someone who proclaims themself to strongly support Reagan and conservative Republican positions, but does not even know who Barry Goldwater was, was lacking something in their convictions. I also knew for a fact that a majority of the students in the one particular class I’m thinking of came from the North Shore and Dupage county, not exactly hotbeds of liberalism. I reached a certain conclusion on my limited information. You certainly are free to assess it differently.

My final comment as to IQ was intended as a joke. Sorry I did not include provenance for you dating back to a Frank and Earnest comic taped to my mom’s kitchen cabinet. That said, who said (paraphrase) “No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the general public”? When I look around me at advertising campaigns, popular entertainment, the intellectual level of political debate, I’m not so sure they were completely off base.

In any event, glad to amaze you. Hope it doesn’t bother you too much that I’m a big John Prine fan, and that your name is from my favorite of his songs.

The Amazing Dinsdale!