# Reagan toppled the berlin wall...ended communism. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 4, 2005, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reagan-toppled-the-berlin-wall-ended-communism/334009 "2005-12-04T06:47:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![jocularjason](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b2d939/32.png) [@jocularjason](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jocularjason)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reagan-toppled-the-berlin-wall-ended-communism/334009/1 "2005-12-04T06:47:50Z")
Did he really? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reagan-toppled-the-berlin-wall-ended-communism/334009/2 "2005-12-04T06:57:23Z")
Nope. ---
**Author:** ![Waterman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b2d939/32.png) [@Waterman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waterman)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reagan-toppled-the-berlin-wall-ended-communism/334009/3 "2005-12-04T07:00:41Z")
My perceptioon is that Reagan had nothing to do with it and any indication that he did was pure Americam PR. I attended an international conference at the beginning of October in 1989 in Alghero (Sardinia) and remember talking with many people from mainland Europe who commented how the economic realities were breaking down the barriers bettween east and west. I believe that Czechoslovakia was the first (or nearly the first) country to open their border to entry/exit of citizens and the reality became that many technical and skilled people were leaving the Iron Curtain countries for the West. The differences between wages and earning powers on either side of the Iron Curtain were huge and the reality was that the Eastern Eurpean countries knew that they couldn’t keep their people trapped forever. I talked with a Professor and his wife from Poland who freely admitted that their was no incentive to stay in Poland unless the government was willing to extend some freedom to their citizenry. ---
**Author:** ![Henry-Finland](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e99b99/32.png) [@Henry-Finland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henry-Finland)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reagan-toppled-the-berlin-wall-ended-communism/334009/4 "2005-12-04T12:46:09Z")
No, he did not. Ronnie Ray-gun was quite out of the world politics. He read his answers from card-boards. He was totally lost in Reykjavik with Gorba. Henry ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reagan-toppled-the-berlin-wall-ended-communism/334009/5 "2005-12-04T13:47:57Z")
Unequivocal no’s, eh? Honest to God. So Reagan had absolutely nothing to do with the fall of Soviet Communism. Nothing. Nada. His military build-up (Star Wars, in particular) did nothing to make the brittle Soviet economy even more in peril. His rhetoric inspired no one. Heck, he probably slowed it down, now that I think of it. Sometimes these threads are laughable. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reagan-toppled-the-berlin-wall-ended-communism/334009/6 "2005-12-04T14:19:42Z")
It was a myth that he did. [According to Gorbachev:](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32927-2004Jun10.html) > [@](#): > > But if he had warm, appreciative words for Reagan, Gorbachev brusquely dismissed the suggestion that Reagan had intimidated either him or the Soviet Union, or forced them to make concessions. Was it accurate to say that Reagan won the Cold War? “That’s not serious,” Gorbachev said, using the same words several times. “I think we all lost the Cold War, particularly the Soviet Union. We each lost $10 trillion,” he said, referring to the money Russians and Americans spent on an arms race that lasted more than four decades. “We only won when the Cold War ended.” > > … > “All that talk that somehow Reagan’s arms race forced Gorbachev to look for some arms reductions, etc., that’s not serious. The Soviet Union could have withstood any arms race. The Soviet Union could have actually decided not to build more weapons, because the weapons we had were more than enough.” Indeed, [Ambassador Dobrynin recalls things differently.](http://hnn.us/articles/2732.html) > [@](#): > > “The impact of Reagan’s hard-line policy . . . was exactly the opposite of the one intended by Washington . It strengthened those in the Politburo, the Central Committee, and the security apparatus who had been pressing for a mirror-image of Reagan’s own policy.” > [@](#): > > Asked if a U.S. government hard line had forced the Soviet government to become more conciliatory, Aleksandr Yakovlev, one of Gorbachev’s top foreign policy advisors, replied: “It played no role. None. I can tell you with the fullest responsibility.” Arbatov, also a key Gorbachev foreign policy advisor, called the idea that a U.S. military buildup helped alter Soviet policy “absolute nonsense.” Soviet changes, he said, “not only ripened inside the country but originated within it.” The Republican spin machine has for decades promoted the myth of Reagan the toppler of communism. But the facts simply do not support this claim. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reagan-toppled-the-berlin-wall-ended-communism/334009/7 "2005-12-04T15:22:12Z")
**Bob** , while I think that Reagan worshippers overstate the certainty and magnitude of Reagan’s impact, I don’t see the sources you’ve cited as being especially credible on the issue: asking a political leader if he was intimidated into backing down is like asking a salesman if his competitor’s product is better. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reagan-toppled-the-berlin-wall-ended-communism/334009/8 "2005-12-04T16:36:04Z")
> [@jocularjason](#): > > Did he really? I think he did, for all the usually stated reasons. That having been said, a large percentage of the members of this message board are Reagan/Pubbie haters, and will soon be along with a myriad of thoughts/cites/statistics that support their feelings on the matter. To me, he’s a hero. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reagan-toppled-the-berlin-wall-ended-communism/334009/9 "2005-12-04T16:48:17Z")
> [@](#): > > I think he did, for all the usually stated reasons…To me, he’s a hero. Which pretty much sums it up right there. I’m pretty sure when a few more years have gone by we’ll be hearing how Reagan won WWII by personally killing Hitler, was the first man on the moon, and freed the slaves. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reagan-toppled-the-berlin-wall-ended-communism/334009/10 "2005-12-04T16:59:06Z")
Did he do it single handedly? No. I do think he played a role, and an important role. Certainly he deserves more credit than he gets on this message board…but thats unsurprising considering how most here feel about the man. Anyway, there are myriad threads on this topic in GD…all the usual answers have been given on both sides. I don’t see anyone substantially changing their minds. -XT ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reagan-toppled-the-berlin-wall-ended-communism/334009/11 "2005-12-04T17:28:13Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > Which pretty much sums it up right there. I’m pretty sure when a few more years have gone by we’ll be hearing how Reagan won WWII by personally killing Hitler, was the first man on the moon, and freed the slaves. Of course Ronnie didn’t do _those_ things: Honest Abe freed the slaves Ike whipped Hitler Tricky Dick was prez when the first man walked on the moon… Hey! Wait a minute… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reagan-toppled-the-berlin-wall-ended-communism/334009/12 "2005-12-04T17:54:59Z")
IANA political sciences geek. My recollection is… I would give Reagan significant credit, but more to MIkhail Gorbachev, and more yet to the qualities of freedom itself. (Anyone who’s ever seen _Miracle on 34th Street_ will recall the end-scene where the attorney sees the Santa Claus cane and backs down from the claims for what he personally has accomplished). Gorbachev seemed to have become convinced that the Soviet Union had to become genuinely competitive with the US and the West in general in order to prevail in the long run, and that this required an open society where shortcomings and insufficiencies couldn’t be swept under the carpet. Reagan took the opportunity provided by the new “glasnost” policy to issue challenges, point out shortcomings of the Soviet system, offer support to dissenters, and of course make the people in the Soviet Union aware of the US doing military buildup. The resultant criticism of the system taking place internally led to a groundswell of sentiment in favor of disbanding the sprawling Soviet Union and returning to the historical component countries such as Russia and the Ukraine and so forth — many of which had only existed as conquered satellite provinces with cultures and ethnicities and etc very different from those of the core state Russia, and never had much of a sense of national identity as “part of the Soviet Union”. (Meanwhile, the Russian folks felt like it was costing them money and other resources to run those other folks’ regional affairs, etc). The war in Afghanistan had left them all with a bad taste in their mouth for doing lots of foreign intervention stuff, so the mood was very isolationist (and a bit nativist). If Brezhnev had been in robust good health and stayed in charge of the Soviet Union through the end of the 80s, I don’t think the “fall of the iron curtain” would have occurred on Reagan’s watch. On the other hand, if Carter had won a second term and Mondale had succeeded him, I’m not sure Gorvachev’s glasnost would have led to the dismantling of the Soviet Union. It might have taken a different course, with more freedom of speech and assembly and press and whatnot but wtih a fairly firm marxist grip on economic policy, at least until internal criticism on its own forced through economic freedoms and policy reform, etc. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reagan-toppled-the-berlin-wall-ended-communism/334009/13 "2005-12-04T18:20:52Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > I would give Reagan significant credit, but more to MIkhail Gorbachev , That’s like giving Hitler more credit for ending WW2, which while you might be able to justify, we normally don’t give credit to the looser for loosing. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reagan-toppled-the-berlin-wall-ended-communism/334009/14 "2005-12-04T18:36:06Z")
Is the OP asking about communism in general or the Berlin wall in particular? Communism ended mostly because Gorbachov opened a few cracks in the dam,(with glastnost and perstrioka) , starting a flood. But the Berlin wall toppled , I think , for a different reason. Not thanks to Ronald Reagan, or to Gorbachov–but thanks to Nike, Levi’s and Coca-cola. East Germans could hear and see the good life only a few meters away on the other side of the wall. And they wanted it. So when it became possible to demand change, they did. When the wall fell, people’s first response was not to deface the statues of Lenin, rejoicing in freedom. Their first response was to run to the malls, rejoicing in consumerism… ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reagan-toppled-the-berlin-wall-ended-communism/334009/15 "2005-12-04T19:08:00Z")
A note on what the public perception of this is here in Germany is: - the view is mostly that we have the Poles, Hungarians, East Germans, Russians etc. to thank; that they liberated themselves, with the help of a Soviet leadership that was newly enlightened enough to know when to fold. The statement “Lech Wałęsa toppled the Berlin Wall” would probably get more “agree” answers than “Ronald Reagan toppled the Berlin Wall.”. I haven’t heard the latter statement voiced in public even by mainstream conservatives. (which is not to say that it hasn’t been voiced. Every meme that the US right promotes is also tried out here, but usually they don’t get traction. For example the Nazism-is-left-wing meme was tried out in 1979 but laughed out of court.) - the statesman who’s remembered for his positive role in Germany is Mikhail Gorbachev, not Ronald Reagan. He still gets a hero’s welcome here. For example, just this year he picked up a honorary doctorate in Münster and a peace prize in Augsburg. Reagan, were he alive and healthy today, would hardly be feted. - Ronald Reagan isn’t idolized even by conservatives (as his public statements were quite a bit over the top by the standards of German conservatives). I’d say Bush I’s reputation here is definitely better than Reagan’s. A lot of people remember Reagan as the ideologue who might have got us all killed just when the Russians were beginning to mellow. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reagan-toppled-the-berlin-wall-ended-communism/334009/16 "2005-12-04T20:19:21Z")
> [@tschild](#): > > A lot of people remember Reagan as the ideologue who might have got us all killed just when the Russians were beginning to mellow. That is probably the fairest assessment of Reagan’s role in (world) history.