# Reagan's role in ending the cold war... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 24, 2003, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reagans-role-in-ending-the-cold-war/170895 "2003-04-24T17:28:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reagans-role-in-ending-the-cold-war/170895/61 "2003-04-28T02:38:11Z")
**Daoloth** , you’re quoting the same sort of boiler-plate rhetoric that they used in the way that our politicians have talked about “making the world safe for Democracy.” Similarly, their actions are simply the actions of a superpower sparring with its foes for domination in its spheres of influence. I am not claiming that the _Soviet Union_ was not attempting to attain a position of unassailable strength. They were certainly carrying on the tradition of the Great Game that they inherited from the Czars (and that the U.S. took up from the Brits). I am pointing out that the notion of “world communism” was more firmly lodged in the mind of Robert Welch than it ever was in the minds of Stalin, Kruschev, Breshnev, or Andropov. If world-wide communism was such a monolithic effort, then we should have never seen a Yugoslavia, an Albania, or a China. They should have all been working with single-minded devotion to the spread of genuine Marxism. Instead, we saw the standard geo-political games throughout the world. Marxism flourished in places such as Vietnam and struggled for ascendancy in places like Malaysia because the “democratic” powers continued to support colonial powers and the rebels could more easily find help from the Russians. However, the struggle was simply one of national power, cloaked in the language of philosophy; following the death of Lenin and exile of Trotsky, it was never a serious goal of the U.S.S.R. Similarly, in China, it was a method of overturning both the Empire and the colonial powers. Aside from North Korea, China has never seriously sought to export its ideology. It has sought to extend its empire and its power, but not its ideology. (Even _Sendero Luminosa_, while borrowing its _concepts_ from Mao, never got a lot of support from China except to the extent that China thought that it would weaken the political power of the U.S. in South America.) ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reagans-role-in-ending-the-cold-war/170895/62 "2003-04-28T03:13:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\ ***Brutus** : > Prove it. > > And even so, that did NOT justify the support of the contras, who were Somoza supporters from back in the day. Who Reagan said were the moral equivalent to our Founding Fathers. > Funny, I didn’t know the Founding Fathers went around raping nuns and killing little kids. > > :mad: \*\* I have heard of ‘Useful Idiots’, but this is ridiculous… :rolleyes: What are you in denial about? That the Sandinistas were supported by Cuba? That they were a group of bloody thugs? That they were communists? Do you not believe that thousands of native indians were killed by the regime? That torture was common? Do tell! ---
**Author:** ![OliverH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/278dde/32.png) [@OliverH](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OliverH)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reagans-role-in-ending-the-cold-war/170895/63 "2003-04-28T07:14:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brutus \* > \*\*I have heard of ‘Useful Idiots’, but this is ridiculous… :rolleyes: > > What are you in denial about? That the Sandinistas were supported by Cuba? That they were a group of bloody thugs? That they were communists? Do you not believe that thousands of native indians were killed by the regime? That torture was common? Do tell! \*\* Do you claim that none of that was practiced before they came into power? Or that none of it was the case for the Contras, too? So what you are saying is that the only reason they were to be opposed is that they were communists, because everyone else is entitled to mindless butchery and oppression? ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reagans-role-in-ending-the-cold-war/170895/64 "2003-04-28T09:57:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by OliverH \* > \*\*…So what you are saying is that the only reason they were to be opposed is that they were communists, because everyone else is entitled to mindless butchery and oppression? \*\* Communism invariably brings with it mindless butchery and oppression. The Samoza regime may not have been flawless, but was nothing like the Sandinistas. And the Somoza regime was not trying to export Marxism to its neighbors. ---
**Author:** ![OliverH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/278dde/32.png) [@OliverH](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OliverH)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reagans-role-in-ending-the-cold-war/170895/65 "2003-04-28T10:48:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brutus \* > \*\*Communism invariably brings with it mindless butchery and oppression. The Samoza regime may not have been flawless, but was nothing like the Sandinistas. And the Somoza regime was not trying to export Marxism to its neighbors. \*\* Thanks for demonstrating that your entire education on the issue consists of propaganda pamphlets. I assume that you also think that Pinochet was only misunderstood and that Salvador Allende was not, in fact democratically elected. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reagans-role-in-ending-the-cold-war/170895/66 "2003-04-28T12:24:32Z")
“The Somoza regime may not have been flawless…” And the award for Understatement of the Year goes to… ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reagans-role-in-ending-the-cold-war/170895/67 "2003-04-28T16:22:48Z")
I’d appreciate you NOT calling me an idiot, at least not in GD. I mean, I want some cites for the oppression and bloodiness of the Sandinistas. And don’t weasel out with “They were COMMIES!” I want specifics. [Here](http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/somoza.htm) is a little on your buddy, Somoza. > [@](#): > > On 23 December an earthquake destroys the capital Managua, leaving about 10,000 dead and 50,000 families homeless. The subsequent looting of the city by the National Guard and revelation that the Somoza family and members of the National Guard are embezzling most of the international aid for the victims of the disaster turns almost all political figures against the regime, a development that is only strengthened by the country’s rapid economic decline. Martial law is declared and Somoza Debayle is made chief executive of the government. He responds to the mounting opposition with increased political repression and further censorship of the media. Not so bad? Embezzeling aid for the victims of an earthquake? [Here](http://library.thinkquest.org/17749/history.html)’s a site about Nicaragua’s history. People would not have supported the Sandinistas, had they not been driven to desparation. What you fail to understand is that communism does not come about in a vaccum. People are driven to the idea when they have nothing else. A healthy, democratic state does NOT become communist on a whim. People were starving, oppressed and miserable. THAT is why they supported the Sandinistas. So prove to me, how the Sandinistas were worse than the Somoza regime-which includes Somoza Debayle’s brother, Luis, and his father, Somoza Garcia. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reagans-role-in-ending-the-cold-war/170895/68 "2003-04-28T17:40:51Z")
**Brutus** : > [@](#): > > I have heard of ‘Useful Idiots’, but this is ridiculous… [Moderator Hat ON] DO NOT call people idiots in this forum, Brutus. [Moderator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reagans-role-in-ending-the-cold-war/170895/69 "2003-04-28T20:35:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\* > > I mean, I want some cites for the oppression and bloodiness of the Sandinistas. > > What you fail to understand is that communism does not come about in a vaccum. \*\* I can back up my assertions about Sandinista oppression by citing a chapter in _The Black Book of Communism_ by Stephane Courtois, et. al, 1999, Harvard University Press. As for communism in a vacuum…if what you say is true, how the hell does one explain the Bolshevik take over in 1917? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reagans-role-in-ending-the-cold-war/170895/70 "2003-04-28T20:56:07Z")
The Bolshevik revolution was a reaction to several centuries of Brutal Czarist oppression. ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reagans-role-in-ending-the-cold-war/170895/71 "2003-04-28T21:03:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*The Bolshevik revolution was a reaction to several centuries of Brutal Czarist oppression. \*\* It’s ironic that the Bolshevik revolution was more brutal than any given Czar in the past 100 years, but that’s beside the point. The point is that Karinsky’s provisional government was failing, and the Bolsheviks (a minority, having only 15,000 members at the time) took power in a veritable power vacuum. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reagans-role-in-ending-the-cold-war/170895/72 "2003-04-28T21:24:35Z")
What I meant by vacuum is that it doesn’t just pop up over night. That’s all. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reagans-role-in-ending-the-cold-war/170895/73 "2003-04-28T23:46:37Z")
This could all be resolved were it not for the legendary Republican reticence and modesty. The Reagan papers, as many of you already know, were due to be released a couple years back, having passed the twenty year mark. There the truth lies, the full story of Reagans laser-like intellect and profound grasp of geopolitical subtleties, as befits a mind accostomed to frequent naps. No doubt, if those papers should be made available to eager cadres of historians, we would have a wonderful insight into his statesmanlike vision, and other qualities sublime. Alas! It is not to be. GeeDubya, in the grip of the aforesaid modesty and reticence, has forbidden their release, on any number of entirely reasonable grounds. But I suspect it is thier natural aversion to aggradizement, they don’t want to make a big fuss about it. The parallel to GeeDubya is striking! After a stunning tenure as the Governor of Texas he faced the same issue personally. His own papers from that time were due for release. Quite enough had been said about his remarkable innovations in governance, such as allowing polluters to determine the extent and severity of pollution law. (This innovation alone ensured that the atmosphere of Southern Texas remains viable for lichens and fungus, and an occasional vertebrate.) Many historians and journalists, such as the estimable Molly Ivins, expressed thier eagerness to get access to those papers, but the prospect of such exposure was greeted by grave reluctance on GeeDubya’s part. They have not been seen since, as they are securely nestled away. What could motivate such a desire to avoid the beady-eyed gaze of history? It could only be modesty, an unwillingness to be seen as braggarts. It would be unseemly to have to comment upon one’s triumphs. And so the papers stay locked away, tho enquiring minds want to know. So therein lies the solution to our debate: the Reagan papers. Alas, they will remain unavailable for the enforceable future. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reagans-role-in-ending-the-cold-war/170895/74 "2003-04-29T02:12:54Z")
**Guinistasia:** The Sandinista regime was very similar to the Cuban regime today, which in turn was similar to Stalinist Russia. Once the Sandinistas took power, they set up neighborhood associations as local spy networks for the government. Each neighborhood had a Comité de Defensa Sandinista (Sandinista Defense Committee), and they were to report dissidents and other undesirables. And of course, they had their own spies spying on them. See: Hussein, Saddam for more examples of this kind of Orwellian repression. So what happened to people who were turned in by their friendly neighbors? The usual: When the government controls everything, it has a lot of power over you. You could lose your job, not get your ration coupons, or be arrested in the middle of the night and dragged off to a detention center (i.e. Gulag). In Nicaragua under the Sandinistas, there was no freedom of press, no free speech, no freedom of association. Private property was abolished, and Nicaraguan farmers who tried to hang on to their property were imprisoned or shot. Sound familiar? See: Kulaks. Soviet Union. The Miskito Indians came under especially harsh repression, because their lifestyle did not fit with the new glorious Communist society. So, they were forcibly relocated, and mass famine due to expropriation of food was used as a political weapon (see: Ukraine, starving of, by Stalin). Aside from the forced relocation and starvation, tens of thousands of Miskito Indians were either killed or imprisoned. Including purges of the leadership and the razing of entire villages to terrorize the population. The Sandinistas carried out thousands of political executions in the first few years of the revolution. There were over 20,000 political prisoners in Sandinista jails, where they were beaten and tortured with electric shocks. This stuff has been heavily documented by the U.N. Human Rights Commission, Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch. Unfortunately, a lot of this stuff isn’t on the web in an easily searchable form, because it’s old stuff. So I don’t have a lot of links for you. Here’s one, though: [Nicaragua Human Rights](http://www.1upinfo.com/country-guide-study/nicaragua/nicaragua124.html) > [@](#): > > During the Sandinistas’ eleven years in power, the Sandinista security forces were accused of widespread repression and numerous violations of human rights, often acting in conjunction with the army. These violations included the murder of perceived Contra supporters, kidnappings, disappearances, illegal detentions, and mistreatment and torture of prisoners. According to the human rights group Americas Watch, a high percentage of DGSE prisoners were coerced into signing confessions by deception, physical force, or deprivation. The security forces were also responsible in 1982 for the summary relocation of the Miskito under cruel conditions. Gross human rights abuses were also committed by the Contras. These abuses included systematic murder, torture, and kidnapping of civilian supporters of the FSLN. Undefended farm cooperatives and other facilities such as clinics associated with the Sandinistas were attacked, and many civilian casualties and executions often accompanied the raids. > > According to local human rights groups, as many as 1,000 persons remained unaccounted for at the close of the Contra war in 1990. Numerous clandestine grave sites–most ascribed to the Sandinistas but some to the Contras–were discovered, providing evidence of the whereabouts of some persons who had disappeared. At one site, Correntada Larga on the south Caribbean coast, witnesses reported the torture and killing of sixty-seven peasants by the DGSE during a two-week period in 1981. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reagans-role-in-ending-the-cold-war/170895/75 "2003-04-29T03:37:49Z")
Will the Reagan papers EVER be released? ☹ Yeah, so similiar **Sam** , that they actually left office when they SAID they would! Imagine that! ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reagans-role-in-ending-the-cold-war/170895/76 "2003-04-29T03:50:57Z")
It wasn’t quite that easy, Guin. The Sandinistas were pressured into it, big time. And there were still reports of intimidation and fraud all through that election. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reagans-role-in-ending-the-cold-war/170895.md?page=3)