# 'Real' Ghosts As Proof of an Afterlife... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 18, 2013, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637 "2013-12-18T10:37:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637/21 "2013-12-18T16:35:19Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > My question is simple. **Do ghost stories like this offer evidence that there in fact is an afterlife?** (“Proof” is such a strong word. So I will phrase it this way.) > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, because they are never substantiated. Anyone can tell a story about anything, that doesn’t make it true. I’d never thought about this until just now, but even substantiated proof of (what we consider) a ghost wouldn’t prove that there’s an afterlife, it would just prove that ghosts exist. What ‘ghosts exists’ actually means would have to be determined next. We just assume that people die then come back as ghosts. Maybe ghosts are there own ‘species’. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637/22 "2013-12-18T16:38:50Z")
> [@MLS](#): > > Even if you could buy the idea of some form of a dead \*person \*existing, notice that in all accounts the ghost is wearing _clothes_. Exactly how do pieces of cloth, etc. get incarnated? [Residual self-image.](http://hollywoodhatesme.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/keanureevesmatrixneo.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637/23 "2013-12-18T17:15:54Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > Has there ever been a scientifically rigorous controlled examination of a ghost “hot spot?” It is difficult for several reasons: 1. Ghosts attract tourists. The owners of the property and/or the townspeople are usually reluctant to let in scientists that might come up with a logical explanation of “ghostly” phenomenon, thus hurting their economy. 2. A lot of the so-called “evidence” is unverifiable. 3. What are the proper instruments used to detect something of this nature? If you point out that the “ghost” didn’t register on any instrument used to detect energy, the supporters of the “ghost” will claim that it emits an energy that cannot be detected by any man-made instrument. Please note that if people that support the notion that ghosts exist investigate and then claim that whatever it is they are waving around is almost certainly detecting the existence of ghosts, the previous claim about ghosts being undetectable is conveniently forgotten. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637/24 "2013-12-18T17:39:29Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > About 18 years ago I lived in the garden floor apartment in downtown St Paul. It had one window and was a sad little place. One hot summer morning as I was getting ready for work, I had the window open but the shade pulled down, I watched as 8 long fingernails wrapped around the bottom of the shade and slowly pulled it up. A sneaker appeared on the window ledge and I was soon face to face with a person attempting to burglarize my apartment. She saw me and apologize and ran away. I got a good glimpse of her and then called 911. The police came and took down the description. I mentioned her hair, her shirt, her height, race, age, her jeans, her shoes, and most importantly-those fingernails. > > After that, I locked up my apartment and began my walk to work about 10 minutes later. Half a block from work I see her. She’s leaving Walgreens and eating out of a bag of Doritos with just the tips of her long nails. Gross. So I call 911 again and follow her from a safe distance as she’s making her way to a bus stop a couple blocks away. I’m on the phone giving a more accurate description; the hair, those nails, height, race, age, her shoes and her sweatpants. > > “Wait, I thought you said she was wearing jeans.” The dispatcher interrupted. I thought back and I realized that I had just filled in the blank instead of actually seeing what I saw or didn’t see. My memory then flipped and saw the sweat pants. > > There was absolutely no reason for me to lie. In fact, the opposite would help me. After that, I completedly recognized the fallibility of the human mind. We can create our own altered reality even if the facts aren’t there to support it. > > Such is the reality of these “ghost” stories. Embellishments on shadows that have turned into those purple monkey dishwasher stories until they’ve become accepted into the public consciousness. > > Frankly, what it comes down to, is that a lot of people have died. A LOT. Millions of people in the most horrific ways. If that’s the case, why aren’t ghost sightings an extremely common phenomenon? I would reckon that former concentration camps would be lousy with them. Places like London, Paris, Rome would have round the clock sightings. Of course, that would assume that ghosts FINALLY would come out during the day. For some reason, the hauntings have to work the night shift. what a twist! - I so thought you were telling a ghost story till the end ! (well written, by the way - this is ) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637/25 "2013-12-18T21:06:10Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > . . . I realized that I had just filled in the blank instead of actually seeing what I saw or didn’t see. . . . Alas, true. We, as humans, are pretty bad observers. There is a charming test they sometimes spring at police academies, where a guy rushes in to a room wielding a banana: at least a few of the people in the room identify it as a gun! Their minds simply painted in what they expected to see, not what they actually saw. A lot of ghost stories simply come from dreams. It is entirely possible for a (tired!) person to zone out without realizing it. Many people, while standing long boring night-watches, have seen people (or things!) inside closed facilities, where no one could actually be. “They must have passed through solid walls!” No…they’re simply hallucinatory. Toss in the incredibly vivid effects of hynopompic and hypnogogic hallucinations: these are also astonishingly convincing effects, which feel (at the moment) absolutely real. Finally, we, by nature, tend to have dreams about loved ones who have died. These feel very much like “visits from beyond.” They are a perfectly natural comforting mechanism, by which the mind attempts to console itself in grief. But a naive or ignorant person could easily interpret it as somehow real. Finally, there’s the “mass hallucination” effect, where entire groups of people can trick themselves into seeing things. Relatively rare, but it does actually happen. Just saying “There were eight witnesses to the bloody drops running down the statue’s forehead” doesn’t establish the reality of the observation. Groups can be wrong just as individuals can. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637/26 "2013-12-18T21:41:23Z")
The only thing that ghosts “prove” is that eyewitness testimony is one part mis-remembering, one part mis-interpretation and only one part actual information received from our senses. There may also be a dash of wishful thinking in there. As others have said, you have to prove to me that ghosts exist before you can even begin to tell me they’re related to an afterlife. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637/27 "2013-12-18T22:28:34Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Toss in the incredibly vivid effects of hynopompic and hypnogogic hallucinations: these are also astonishingly convincing effects, which feel (at the moment) absolutely real. Yes; I recall this thread: [Anyone else seen The Hag (Sleep Paralysis)?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=688185) Considering what the reaction would be of someone who _doesn’t_ realize they are hallucinations to some of the visions mentioned in that thread, it’s easy to see where many stories of the supernatural come from; including ghost stories. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637/28 "2013-12-19T00:10:12Z")
What people report as “ghosts” could be a number of undocumented yet non-supernatural events. Like, maybe a ghost is just a perceptible anomaly in the space-time continuum, when normally anomalies would be invisible. Maybe what they see is a person who inhabits another dimension, rather than a dead person. Or maybe all they see is light from this other dimension, and the human mind creatively interprets it as a body. Or maybe a ghost is really a visiting alien or an undiscovered life form with glow-in-the-dark properties. But I’m not ready to conclude there are no such things as ghosts based on the reasoning that there should be more walking around. That seems like specious reasoning to me. Maybe there is something special about the people who become ghosts. Maybe only special people are able to see ghosts. Maybe our psyches can’t handle anything that doesn’t make sense, so the subconscious mind screens out from our awareness all evidence of ghosts, monsters, and aliens. Maybe only a set number of ghosts are allowed to roam the Earth at any given time, due to the physical laws of the spirit world. There are a ton of explanations for why there aren’t more ghost sightings, besides the most obvious one. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Quatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bc8723/32.png) [@Mr\_Quatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Quatro)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637/29 "2013-12-19T00:18:58Z")
Radar can see things in the air that are there, but you can’t see them due to distance or fog or something like that. Active sonar can see things that are in and under the water that are there, but you can’t see them due to distance or fog or something like that. But passive sonar can hear things that are there, but you can’t see them due to distance or hidden by being underwater. So why can’t modern technology see or hear things that we humans can not see? Just a matter of time till we can. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637/30 "2013-12-19T00:40:46Z")
> [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > Radar can see things in the air that are there, but you can’t see them due to distance or fog or something like that. > > Active sonar can see things that are in and under the water that are there, but you can’t see them due to distance or fog or something like that. > > But passive sonar can hear things that are there, but you can’t see them due to distance or hidden by being underwater. > > So why can’t modern technology see or hear things that we humans can not see? > > Just a matter of time till we can. How long will it take to develop technology that will detect things that aren’t there at all? ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637/31 "2013-12-19T00:44:19Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Unfortunately ghosts only tend to manifest around unreliable witnesses. I wonder why that is. Because you believe anyone who reports seeing a ghost unreliable? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637/32 "2013-12-19T00:52:14Z")
> [@j666](#): > > Because you believe anyone who reports seeing a ghost unreliable? Why don’t you go ahead and give us your _best_ possible ghost sighting, o.k.? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637/33 "2013-12-19T01:12:57Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > . . . But I’m not ready to conclude there are no such things as ghosts based on the reasoning that there should be more walking around. That seems like specious reasoning to me. . . . Agreed. Just as only a small number of all skeletons get fossilized, perhaps only a small number of all dead people get ghostified. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637/34 "2013-12-19T02:42:06Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Why don’t you go ahead and give us your _best_ possible ghost sighting, o.k.? Best possible? Okay, but to what criterion? If **scariest** , it has to have that sudden strong musical note that accompanies the best ghosts, but that can be difficult to arrange. Second best for scary are those everyday sounds that are don’t make sense - footsteps upstairs when no-one else is home, knocks on door when no-one is there. The most convincing ones are the most banal; the voice saying “You always made better coffee”; grandmother walking down the hall and turning into her room; the dog lying in the sun on the porch. The most heart-wrenching are the stories of children playing with children who do not realize they have died. (One was shared here some years ago; two small children in shabby clothes playing outside of the house the author had recently moved to? In the South? Or maybe I just assumed the South because it was such a good story.) The ones best for inspiring that slow low sense of dread are the multiple sightings, that become more pronounced over time, with the person only gradually become aware the other is a ghost. The first and last only show up in movies and books, obviously. The other types have all been shared with me over the years, usually by people who **don’t** believe in ghosts. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637/35 "2013-12-19T13:03:13Z")
> [@j666](#): > > Best possible? Okay, but to what criterion? The criterion of independantly verifiable, repeatable, measurable evidence. For a start. With the ubiquity of hand held devices that are used to record the most mundane aspects of human life, you’d think there would finally be sufficient photographic evidence of ghosts, aliens and sasquach. Yet somehow, no new evidence is coming forward. Have ghosts suddenly become camera shy? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637/36 "2013-12-19T13:12:46Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > As I’ve said many times before, I believe in God. But I don’t personally believe in an afterlife. But that is not to say sometimes I don’t wonder… > > One thing that often makes me think about the matter, is so-called “real” ghost stories. I know many of these stories have logical explanations. Some are hallucinations, which according to a medical book I once read, is actually sometimes a normal part of the grieving process. Some are illusions. Some are likely made up. But some, I just don’t know. The stories are sometimes very credible, told by very credible people that have no reason to lie. > > There are many examples of this. And I don’t have the space for all of them. So I will present one case that I have been thinking about of late: _Resurrection Mary_. She is supposedly a young Polish girl, killed on the way to a dance in metro Chicago. She often (it’s claimed) hitches rides with unsuspecting strangers. > > [Here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection_Mary) is her Wikipedia article. [Here](http://www.hauntdetective.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=53:resurrection-mary&catid=37:westside&Itemid=63) is a slightly more biased source. And interestingly, [here](http://thelostdutchman.hubpages.com/hub/The-Ballad-of-Resurrection-Mary) is ballad written about her. > > My question is simple. **Do ghost stories like this offer evidence that there in fact is an afterlife?** (“Proof” is such a strong word. So I will phrase it this way.) > > (BTW, some people actually take this matter quite seriously too. There was this local story about 10 years ago of policeman’s ghost, supposedly haunting a local business. I forget the details now, and have no cite. But some people actually raised a fund to find his killer, reasoning that the “ghost” was restless for this reason.) > > 🙂 If you think about Ghost’s or Spirits they have no weight or body (like the wind) and couldn’t be seen. The mind can do some strange things. I don’t know of any person who doesn’t believe in ghosts or spirits ever seeing one. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637/37 "2013-12-19T13:34:42Z")
As I have said before, I don’t believe in ghosts because that only encourages them. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637/38 "2013-12-19T13:46:10Z")
> [@j666](#): > > Best possible? Okay, but to what criterion? > > If **scariest** , it has to have that sudden strong musical note that accompanies the best ghosts, but that can be difficult to arrange. > > Second best for scary are those everyday sounds that are don’t make sense - footsteps upstairs when no-one else is home, knocks on door when no-one is there. > > The most convincing ones are the most banal; the voice saying “You always made better coffee”; grandmother walking down the hall and turning into her room; the dog lying in the sun on the porch. > > The most heart-wrenching are the stories of children playing with children who do not realize they have died. (One was shared here some years ago; two small children in shabby clothes playing outside of the house the author had recently moved to? In the South? Or maybe I just assumed the South because it was such a good story.) > > The ones best for inspiring that slow low sense of dread are the multiple sightings, that become more pronounced over time, with the person only gradually become aware the other is a ghost. > > The first and last only show up in movies and books, obviously. The other types have all been shared with me over the years, usually by people who **don’t** believe in ghosts. Sticking to the topic of this thread, I would think it was rather obvious that I meant the one with the most verifiable evidence behind it. Why would I be asking for your scariest, most heart wrenching, or most inspiring ghost stories in Great Debates? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637/39 "2013-12-19T13:52:07Z")
This is like asking “Is ‘real’ prayer proof of the christian god”. No, _and_ there’s literally no evidence that prayer works for, well, _anything_. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637/40 "2013-12-19T16:55:45Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > This is like asking “Is ‘real’ prayer proof of the christian god”. No, _and_ there’s literally no evidence that prayer works for, well, _anything_. I never saw a scary ghost, I pray I never see one; But I can tell you, anyhow, I’d rather see than be one 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637.md?page=3)