# 'Real' Ghosts As Proof of an Afterlife... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 18, 2013, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637 "2013-12-18T10:37:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637/41 "2013-12-20T02:13:43Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > The criterion of independantly verifiable, repeatable, measurable evidence. For a start. > > With the ubiquity of hand held devices that are used to record the most mundane aspects of human life, you’d think there would finally be sufficient photographic evidence of ghosts, aliens and sasquach. Yet somehow, no new evidence is coming forward. Have ghosts suddenly become camera shy? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Sticking to the topic of this thread, I would think it was rather obvious that I meant the one with the most verifiable evidence behind it. Why would I be asking for your scariest, most heart wrenching, or most inspiring ghost stories in Great Debates? Honestly, no. Why would you ask for something we all know doesn’t exist. We cannot “measure” ghosts; perhaps because we lack the technology and adequate knowledge of their nature; perhaps because they do not exist; perhaps because they are really aliens. Or angels. However, I do strongly suspect that even if ghosts do exist, there are those who would insist even the “best” peer reviewed and reproduced evidence was faked. People disbelieve as well as believe by choice as much as by evidence. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637/42 "2013-12-20T12:34:34Z")
> [@j666](#): > > Honestly, no. Why would you ask for something we all know doesn’t exist. We cannot “measure” ghosts; perhaps because we lack the technology and adequate knowledge of their nature; perhaps because they do not exist; perhaps because they are really aliens. Or angels. I work on the “do not exist” assumption. Until proven otherwise. > [@j666](#): > > However, I do strongly suspect that even if ghosts do exist, there are those who would insist even the “best” peer reviewed and reproduced evidence was faked. People disbelieve as well as believe by choice as much as by evidence. That’s an argument that willfully ignorant people exists. It does not follow that we should therefore believe in ghosts, angels and aliens among us before there is sufficient and compelling evidence to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_B](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jim_b/32/4338_2.png) [@Jim\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_B)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637/43 "2013-12-27T12:53:30Z")
Well, I guess this discussion is about over. But I thought I’d share some of what I have been talking about (i.e., “real” ghost stories): [http://msnvideo.msn.com/?channelindex=4&from=en-us\_msnhp#/video/57d5d685-49a8-ed14-3f9b-20e906286b1b](http://msnvideo.msn.com/?channelindex=4&from=en-us_msnhp#/video/57d5d685-49a8-ed14-3f9b-20e906286b1b) [http://msnvideo.msn.com/?channelindex=4&from=en-us\_msnhp#/video/cbc5aca6-e09b-cc91-c4ba-4079922571c7](http://msnvideo.msn.com/?channelindex=4&from=en-us_msnhp#/video/cbc5aca6-e09b-cc91-c4ba-4079922571c7) I just came across these sites recently. But I would call them typical of what I’ve seen. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637/44 "2013-12-27T13:20:57Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > Well, I guess this discussion is about over. But I thought I’d share some of what I have been talking about (i.e., “real” ghost stories): > > [http://msnvideo.msn.com/?channelindex=4&from=en-us\_msnhp#/video/57d5d685-49a8-ed14-3f9b-20e906286b1b](http://msnvideo.msn.com/?channelindex=4&from=en-us_msnhp#/video/57d5d685-49a8-ed14-3f9b-20e906286b1b) > > [http://msnvideo.msn.com/?channelindex=4&from=en-us\_msnhp#/video/cbc5aca6-e09b-cc91-c4ba-4079922571c7](http://msnvideo.msn.com/?channelindex=4&from=en-us_msnhp#/video/cbc5aca6-e09b-cc91-c4ba-4079922571c7) > > I just came across these sites recently. But I would call them typical of what I’ve seen. > > 🙂 Instead of collecting hundreds of stories, why don’t you spend a little time and effort into investigating just one of them? This thread is going to go absolutely nowhere if all _you_ do is collect up ghost glurge and throw it at us. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637/45 "2013-12-27T14:25:22Z")
As with any claim of extraordinary events, there are a few possibilities: 1. Those making the claim are lying (hoax). 2. Those making the claim are not lying, but are mistaken or deceived. 3. Those making the claim are not lying, but the phenomenon has a natural explanation. 4. Those making the claim are not lying and the phenomenon is real. In any randomly selected extraordinary claim, it’s reasonable to assume that 1, 2, or 3 are far, far more likely than 4. I don’t see why any of the linked claims are different – 1 through 3 are far more likely for all of the claims linked to by the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637/46 "2013-12-27T16:07:55Z")
As someone who also believes in God, but one step further believes in an afterlife (well, sort-of), I can’t agree with the idea that even a verified ghost story would be any sort of evidence either way. First, how do we verify this ghost? Is it measurable in some way with scientific instruments? Or maybe it’s something that a large number of credible witnesses can see, easily repeatable, but can’t be photographed, filmed, recorded, or otherwise detected. If it’s the former, it doesn’t really say much about the afterlife, since the general idea of the afterlife depends on some non-physical, non-energy aspect of the human, the soul, continues on. If it has physical properties, maybe it has some other physical explanation besides because an actual ghost. And let’s say maybe it is the latter and we can’t measure it, it doesn’t necessarily follow that it is a soul either. Maybe there’s some other physical explanation that we just haven’t learned about yet or cannot detect yet. Or maybe there’s some other aspect to the nature of the universe that isn’t physical, but isn’t super-natural either. So, we’d really have to go into some sort of meaningful detail on exactly how we were able to meaningfully verify that a particular ghost is actually a ghost. Quite frankly, considering we can’t even get an idea of what sort of example would definitively prove God exists, if he were so inclined to prove himself, I can’t imagine how would could get a meaningful concensus on something more difficult to define and test, like a ghost. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637/47 "2014-01-02T01:25:12Z")
If you believe in the biblical afterlife, you shouldn’t believe in ghosts. The word “ghost” is used very few times in the bible, and most of the time it’s as a synonym for demons, not human spirits. I don’t recall the passage but one of the only times it’s used to mean a human spirit, it sounds like the person is alive anyway (astral projection?) The bible tells us that after death the dead all sleep until judgment day. If that’s true, then there should be no such thing as a ghost; at least not the type of ghost that’s aware of itself, anyway. So, even if ghosts were real, they would not be any particular proof of an afterlife. They might provide proof that the biblical afterlife wasn’t real, though. Bible passages that explain what happens to the dead: Daniel 12:2 Ecclesiastes 9 verses 5, 10 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 John 5:28-29 etc ---
**Author:** ![B.Serum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/b.serum/32/14266_2.png) [@B.Serum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Serum)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637/48 "2014-01-02T06:25:55Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > Well, I guess this discussion is about over. But I thought I’d share some of what I have been talking about (i.e., “real” ghost stories): > > [http://msnvideo.msn.com/?channelindex=4&from=en-us\_msnhp#/video/57d5d685-49a8-ed14-3f9b-20e906286b1b](http://msnvideo.msn.com/?channelindex=4&from=en-us_msnhp#/video/57d5d685-49a8-ed14-3f9b-20e906286b1b) > > [http://msnvideo.msn.com/?channelindex=4&from=en-us\_msnhp#/video/cbc5aca6-e09b-cc91-c4ba-4079922571c7](http://msnvideo.msn.com/?channelindex=4&from=en-us_msnhp#/video/cbc5aca6-e09b-cc91-c4ba-4079922571c7) > > I just came across these sites recently. But I would call them typical of what I’ve seen. > > 🙂 The predominance of ghost stories is evidence for the human mind’s capacity for magical thinking. You should check out the work of Joe Nickell, a well-known paranormal investigator. Although he is a skeptic, he goes out of his way to not be a “close-minded debunker.” Rather than boring you with a bunch of books you’ll never read, here are a few interesting _Point of Inquiry_ podcasts in which he talks about investigating paranormal claims, among other things. [ul] [li][Skeptical Inquiry vs Debunking](http://www.pointofinquiry.org/joe_nickell_skeptical_inquiry_vs_debunking/)[/li][li][Psychic Detectives](http://www.pointofinquiry.org/joe_nickell_psychic_detectives/)[/li][li][Humanistic Skepticism](http://www.pointofinquiry.org/joe_nickell_humanistic_skepticism/)[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637/49 "2014-01-02T07:22:58Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > If you believe in the biblical afterlife, you shouldn’t believe in ghosts. …The bible tells us that after death the dead all sleep until judgment day. If that’s true, then there should be no such thing as a ghost; at least not the type of ghost that’s aware of itself, anyway. So, even if ghosts were real, they would not be any particular proof of an afterlife. … > > Bible passages that explain what happens to the dead: > Daniel 12:2 > Ecclesiastes 9 verses 5, 10 > 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 > John 5:28-29 etc And as with everything else in the Bible, this is directly contradicted by other parts of the Bible, where the dead are self aware, and can be seen and heard by the living. > [@The Bible](#): > > Six days later, Jesus took Peter, James, and John, the brother of James, up on a high mountain by themselves. While they watched, Jesus’ appearance was changed; his face became bright like the sun, and his clothes became white as light. Then Moses and Elijah[a] appeared to them, talking with Jesus. > > Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good that we are here. If you want, I will put up three tents here—one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” So at least some people are conscious after death, thousands of years (and counting) before the Judgement day. These dead people are aware of themselves, can manifest visibly to living people and be heard by them. IOW according to the Bible ghosts do exist, not as demons but as actual spirits of dead people descended from heaven. Now you can call these dead people angels or saints or whatever, but they are functionally identical to ghosts, and utterly incompatible with the biblical verses you quoted that explicitly state that such beings can not exist. To misquote Ned Flanders: “Lord I’ve always believed in The Bible, even the bits that contradict the other bits.” ---
**Author:** ![SmartAlecCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SmartAlecCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAlecCat)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637/50 "2014-01-02T18:14:01Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > But I’m not ready to conclude there are no such things as ghosts based on the reasoning that there should be more walking around. That seems like specious reasoning to me. Maybe there is something special about the people who become ghosts. Maybe only special people are able to see ghosts. And maybe there is a teapot out in space… I’m curious – when would you be “ready to conclude”? Using Stephen Jay Gould’s description of science, I’d say at this point “it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent” that there are no such things as ghosts. You don’t have to lock yourself in. You can say there are no such things as ghosts today and if tomorrow someone actually comes up with convincing evidence, you say “Ok, I was wrong, there are ghosts.” ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637/51 "2014-01-02T23:49:52Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > There are no real ghosts. The original Scooby Doo taught me that when I was a kid. It **also** taught you that stoners fight crime, & that Great Danes can speak English (albeit with a strong accent). I challenge your source. Jabberjaw is much more convincing. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637/52 "2014-01-03T00:04:36Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > It **also** taught you that stoners fight crime, & that Great Danes can speak English (albeit with a strong accent). > > I challenge your source. > Jabberjaw is much more convincing. 😃 Don’t be ridiculous, he gets No Respect! Woo woo woo! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Toxgoddess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Toxgoddess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxgoddess)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637/53 "2014-01-03T00:39:03Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > Has there ever been a scientifically rigorous controlled examination of a ghost “hot spot?” Read _Spook_ by Mary Roach. A fascinating look at serious studies of the occult, paranormal, near-death experiences and reincarnation. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637/54 "2014-01-08T11:34:40Z")
Why would a ghost frequent a graveyard ? I can understand it hanging around somewhere it had a traumatic experience during its lifetime, but it would have no experience of the cemetery, as it had ceased its life when its remains went there . always supposing that they actually exist of course . ---
**Author:** ![jfreakofkorn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecc23a/32.png) [@jfreakofkorn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jfreakofkorn)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637/55 "2014-01-08T13:13:33Z")
its what you believe … if you believe they exists, they exist … if you dont believe in them, you dont … ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637/56 "2014-01-08T13:35:18Z")
> [@jfreakofkorn](#): > > its what you believe … > > if you believe they exists, they exist … > > if you dont believe in them, you dont … Pretty sure that is not right - ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637/57 "2014-01-08T15:58:43Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Pretty sure that is not right - It doesn’t matter what you think. According to\*\* jfreakofkorn\*\*: > [@](#): > > if you dont believe in them, you dont … YOU don’t exist. And neither do apostrophes. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637/58 "2014-01-08T17:26:12Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > It doesn’t matter what you think. According to\*\* jfreakofkorn\*\*: > > YOU don’t exist. And neither do apostrophes. Exactly, and since I am still posting, that either means a) he’s wrong b) he believes in ghosts, and I am one - which would be extraordinary to say the least. In any event - I’m very glad that it takes more than ‘simple’ belief for things to actually exist - ---
**Author:** ![jfreakofkorn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecc23a/32.png) [@jfreakofkorn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jfreakofkorn)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637/59 "2014-01-08T17:40:29Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > It doesn’t matter what you think. According to\*\* jfreakofkorn\*\*: > > YOU don’t exist. And neither do apostrophes. board is to express opinion … like you like my opinion, you like it if you dont like my opinion, well, thats not my problem is it 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637/60 "2014-01-08T17:43:54Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > Why would a ghost frequent a graveyard ? Maybe because of all the [trash](https://www.google.com/search?q=trash+return+living+dead&espv=210&es_sm=122&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=B43NUprGEObjsATl-4KQDg&ved=0CC4QsAQ&biw=1271&bih=753) (NSFW) people leave there… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-ghosts-as-proof-of-an-afterlife/676637.md?page=4)