# Real life historical massed cavalry vs cavalry battles **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 11, 2018, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-historical-massed-cavalry-vs-cavalry-battles/812219 "2018-04-11T15:42:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-historical-massed-cavalry-vs-cavalry-battles/812219/21 "2018-04-12T23:08:30Z")
Yes, but battles can be won in other ways–grinding attrition, enemy breaks off the engagement because the opposing force is too well dug in, one side breaks and runs without necessarily having a weak point pressured by a strike force of some kind, etc. The tipping point is what Guderian called the “schwerpunkt”–a turning point where the application of a powerful mobile force (armor in this case) can change the course of a battle. But not every battle has that. El Alamein featured a lot of armor but was won with more of a ground-and-pound approach. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-historical-massed-cavalry-vs-cavalry-battles/812219/22 "2018-04-12T23:54:55Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > [In Lord of the Rings](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDahhSsOXsg), [Game of Thrones](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToOIvD5mlow)and other fantasy works and even [historical dramas](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3OhV7aP2mw), they frequently have battles consisting of two large (thousands) cavalry forces charging full speed at each other until they collide with a thunderous roar. Minor quibble - in the Lord of the Rings, there is only one mass cavalry charge recorded. The battle of the Pelennor Fields had the Riders of Rohan charging the Witch King’s army, but they fought either infantry or a few Mumakil (effectively elephants.) In the battle of Agincourt, the French Cavalry were decimated by English Longbowmen. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-historical-massed-cavalry-vs-cavalry-battles/812219/23 "2018-04-13T01:09:57Z")
> [@glee](#): > > In the battle of Agincourt, the French Cavalry were decimated by English Longbowmen. Who them stabbed them to death through the visors of their helmets when they were unable to move. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-historical-massed-cavalry-vs-cavalry-battles/812219/24 "2018-04-13T13:29:00Z")
At the battle of [Cannae](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cannae#Battle_2), Hannibal’s cavalry sealed the deal\* but as **tbonham** says, they dismounted and fought on foot. \*Literally. After chasing off the Roman cavalry it returned to the Roman rear to block off any retreat. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-historical-massed-cavalry-vs-cavalry-battles/812219/25 "2018-04-13T17:29:11Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Isn’t every force most effective at the tipping point? That’s kind of what “tipping point” means. Sure. But cavalry can _get to_ the tipping point soon after it becomes recognizable to the commander(s). ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-historical-massed-cavalry-vs-cavalry-battles/812219/26 "2018-04-13T17:53:18Z")
One example of a cavalry-cavalry engagement that caught at Western imaginations occurred in the [Battle of Dorylaeum](https://erenow.com/ww/warfareinthemedievalworld/13.html): > [@](#): > > After a while, some of the Frankish lancers grew restless and attempted mounted sorties against the Seljuk light cavalry. But the Latin heavy cavalry could not reach the faster Turkish horse archers, who rode off only to rapidly cut back and swarm the pursuing knights, separating the hapless European heavy cavalry from their infantry support (Map 3.5(b)). For six hours, the remainder of Bohemond’s troops held their ground while Turkish horse archers wore down the crusaders, killing men and horses. A contemporary described the scene, stating the crusaders were ‘crushed one against another like sheep penned up in a fold, hopeless and panic-stricken, we were shut in by the Turks on every side’. Under a shower of Turkish arrows, the crusader line began to form gaps. > > At midday, the Turks organized a light cavalry sabre charge into the rapidly disintegrating crusader force (Map 3.5(c)). At that moment, Frankish knights from the second column rode up and struck the Seljuk flank and rear. > > \ > > The arrival of the Christian heavy cavalry completely surprised the formed Turkish cavalry, who had neglected to reconnoitre the second column’s march. The Seljuks had no time to turn and form a new front. The charge of thousands of crusader heavy cavalry struck the Turkish centre from the rear, rolling up the horse archers’ left flank. Seeing the arrival of a relief force, Bohemond ordered an attack the moment his allies appeared at the rear of the enemy, catching the Turkish left wing between the two Christian forces (Map 3.5(d)). The crusader knights’ charge was incredibly decisive, inflicting perhaps 3,000 casualties on the Turks. Christian losses were about 4,000 men in total. > > The one-sided victory won at Dorylaeum became a model battle for the crusaders, with the heavy casualties inflicted on the Turks only reinforcing western prejudices concerning the strength of their heavy cavalry. The effect of the heavily-armed Western cavalry on the lighter Turkish cavalry made a big impression on both sides. Europeans would come to count on the heavy cavalry charging home as the culmination of their fantasies about how future crusades would go their way. Conversely, the ease with which Turkish horse archers had exhausted and harried the heavier Western cavalry in the earlier part of the battle was lost on the West. Turkish and Arab armies would in the future decline to permit the Crusaders to charge home, and beat them with greater mobility and flexibility. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-historical-massed-cavalry-vs-cavalry-battles/812219/27 "2018-04-13T17:57:06Z")
Cavalry was only one component of the battlefield. Archers were by far the most lethal. Imagine thousands of arrows raining down randomly from the sky. IIRC didn’t the Cavalry come in afterwards to slaughter the survivors of the archers’ attack? ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-historical-massed-cavalry-vs-cavalry-battles/812219/28 "2018-04-13T22:33:37Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Cavalry was only one component of the battlefield. > > Archers were by far the most lethal. Imagine thousands of arrows raining down randomly from the sky. And horse archers are overpowered. Nerf them! So, why didn’t western Europeans ever develop units of horse archers? **Sailboat** ’s quote starts to answer the question. But it’d hard to believe that one battle would have such a huge influence on Western armies for an extended period of time. I’m wondering if it was a class issue: in western Europe, only peasants were archers, and only nobility could afford warhorses, thus no one could use both. Anyone care to comment? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-historical-massed-cavalry-vs-cavalry-battles/812219/29 "2018-04-13T23:13:18Z")
Shooting a bow from a moving horse is hard. Like \*really \*hard. You have to start learning as a child, and you know who teaches their children to shoot from horseback? Steppe and desert nomads, so that they’ll be able to help protect their flocks from wolves, and maybe do some hunting. And if that means you have a horde of horseman who happen to know how to use a bow… well, why not take them out for a ride? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-historical-massed-cavalry-vs-cavalry-battles/812219/30 "2018-04-14T01:04:14Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Minor quibble - in the Lord of the Rings, there is only one mass cavalry charge recorded. The battle of the Pelennor Fields had the Riders of Rohan charging the Witch King’s army, but they fought either infantry or a few Mumakil (effectively elephants.) In The Two Towers, Éomer and Gandalf lead a cavalry charge to break the siege at Helm’s Deep. But that was also against infantry. But the scene I was actually thinking of was the earlier scene where the Rohirrim go head to head against a force of Warg-mounted orcs. Although that particular scene actually demonstrates one of the cases where I would expect to see a cavalry on cavalry charge. In this particular case, the Rohirrim cavalry are acting as a screening force to intercept an enemy mounted patrol. What I wouldn’t expect to see is two opposing armies turning to their knights as the opening move. Even against infantry, I imagine it didn’t take long to figure out a very noisy and impressive charge of heavy cavalry can be blunted with a forest of pikemen and archers. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-historical-massed-cavalry-vs-cavalry-battles/812219/31 "2018-04-14T01:13:32Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > What I wouldn’t expect to see is two opposing armies turning to their knights as the opening move. Even against infantry, I imagine it didn’t take long to figure out a very noisy and impressive charge of heavy cavalry can be blunted with a forest of pikemen and archers. You’d think. But sometimes [foolish pride overwhelms good sense](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Nicopolis). ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-historical-massed-cavalry-vs-cavalry-battles/812219/32 "2018-04-14T01:18:04Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Shooting a bow from a moving horse is hard. Like \*really \*hard. You have to start learning as a child, and you know who teaches their children to shoot from horseback? Steppe and desert nomads, so that they’ll be able to help protect their flocks from wolves, and maybe do some hunting. And if that means you have a horde of horseman who happen to know how to use a bow… well, why not take them out for a ride? Exactly. In _[A History of Warfare](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_History_of_Warfare)_, John Keegan discusses how attempts to create steppe-type horse archer armies by a deliberate act of will were only modestly successful – the best horse armies always sprung from nomadic peoples who dedicated their lives to practicing their craft. Furthermore, such armies are dependent on _huge_ numbers of horses. A typical Mongol warrior relied on a train of as many as sixteen horses when campaigning, and war is always hard on horseflesh. Horse armies have always been limited to areas with good grazing – their penetration beyond open grasslands is almost always short-ranged and temporary. It’s been speculated that the great surges of conquest by horse archers are tied to particularly productive years for grass (due to the vagaries of weather and climate). Without vast grasslands and ceaseless practice, Western armies were never going to meet the horse peoples on equal terms ---
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-historical-massed-cavalry-vs-cavalry-battles/812219/33 "2018-04-14T02:28:05Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Exactly. In _[A History of Warfare](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_History_of_Warfare)_, John Keegan discusses how attempts to create steppe-type horse archer armies by a deliberate act of will were only modestly successful – the best horse armies always sprung from nomadic peoples who dedicated their lives to practicing their craft. > > Furthermore, such armies are dependent on _huge_ numbers of horses. A typical Mongol warrior relied on a train of as many as sixteen horses when campaigning, and war is always hard on horseflesh. Horse armies have always been limited to areas with good grazing – their penetration beyond open grasslands is almost always short-ranged and temporary. > > It’s been speculated that the great surges of conquest by horse archers are tied to particularly productive years for grass (due to the vagaries of weather and climate). > > Without vast grasslands and ceaseless practice, Western armies were never going to meet the horse peoples on equal terms Indeed, just as English longbowmen were made by ceaseless practice. And there is a rather obvious cycle of horse empires overrunning more settled peoples, getting to like the luxuries of the people they’d conquered, abandoning the constant training, and then being conquered by the next hungry horde. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-historical-massed-cavalry-vs-cavalry-battles/812219/34 "2018-04-14T05:03:15Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Minor quibble - in the Lord of the Rings, there is only one mass cavalry charge recorded. The battle of the Pelennor Fields had the Riders of Rohan charging the Witch King’s army, but they fought either infantry or a few Mumakil (effectively elephants.) > > In the battle of Agincourt, the French Cavalry were decimated by English Longbowmen. Do note, Archers role is akin to that of _Artillery_ not infantry. Agincourt was charging into enemy artillery, like the Charge of the Light Brigade 400 years later. Your heavy cavalry charges against Archers. They let lose a volley of thousands of arrows. Most don’t do anything but a few do (even if its 5% out of 3000 launched, that 150). Next volley does the same. And they next. As you approach them more and more begin to hit as rage reduces. Gaps open up in your line, as falling riders and horse collide with those behind you and people and beasts naturally seek to avoid the incoming hail. By the 7-9th volley, the cohesion is gone, and you are easy pickings for enemy infantry or cavalry. WHich is why no one ever tried to charge archers, unless they could get there VERY quikcly. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-historical-massed-cavalry-vs-cavalry-battles/812219/35 "2018-04-14T05:13:48Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Shooting a bow from a moving horse is hard. Like \*really \*hard. You have to start learning as a child, and you know who teaches their children to shoot from horseback? Steppe and desert nomads, so that they’ll be able to help protect their flocks from wolves, and maybe do some hunting. And if that means you have a horde of horseman who happen to know how to use a bow… well, why not take them out for a ride? Exactly. Plus the rolling hills and river valleys which characterise much of the Western European terrain are _not_ suitable for horse archers. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-historical-massed-cavalry-vs-cavalry-battles/812219/36 "2018-04-14T13:49:17Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Sailboat** ’s source: > > The crusader knights’ charge was incredibly decisive, inflicting perhaps 3,000 casualties on the Turks. Christian losses were about 4,000 men in total. > > The one-sided victory won at Dorylaeum became a model battle for the crusaders,… A battle where the victors lost a thousand more men than the losers is “one-sided”? ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-historical-massed-cavalry-vs-cavalry-battles/812219/37 "2018-04-14T14:36:44Z")
Another analogy to 20th century warfare: European heavy cavalry was more like modern armor (ie tanks) than modern motorized/mechanized cavalry. The latter is more akin to light horse cavalry, with principal missions of reconnaissance, screening and security. Heavy cavalry and armor had/have principal missions of shock and exploitation of breakthroughs, where in both cases the breakthrough might be initially achieved or set up at least by infantry (typically heavily depending on support by artillery in 20th century case). So talking about how heavy cavalry did or should engage opposing heavy cavalry is a little like the debate prior to and early in WWII whether engaging enemy armor would or should be a principal mission of armor and therefore whether capability against enemy tanks should be a principal consideration in the design of one’s own tanks. But by the end of WWII it was universally recognized that armor v armor engagements were unavoidable and that armor was de facto a, if not the, principal anti-armor weapon. It’s somewhat analogous to the observation that European heavy cavalry formations would end up engaging one another where both sides had them, even if that wasn’t ‘the idea’ necessarily. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-historical-massed-cavalry-vs-cavalry-battles/812219/38 "2018-04-14T15:15:35Z")
> [@glee](#): > > In the battle of Agincourt, the French Cavalry were decimated by English Longbowmen. This is not untrue, but probably hyped by the victors. The very muddy recently ploughed field that bogged down the horses, and general arrogance of the French nobility who thought the English were easy meat, played a large part. And yes - to pull an English longbow you had to start training as a child. Anyone who wants to have a go can visit the Mary Rose museum in Portsmouth where they have thousands recovered from the wreck of Henry VIII’s flagship, and allow visitors to try. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-historical-massed-cavalry-vs-cavalry-battles/812219/39 "2018-04-14T17:57:10Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > A battle where the victors lost a thousand more men than the losers is “one-sided”? The Crusaders likely had a substantial numerical superiority as well ;). What was “one-sided” was probably only the final melee. The lightly equipped Turkish troops just weren’t up to taking a full charge from heavily-armored knights. Caught by surprise in the flank they didn’t have a chance to maneuver. Really the Mongols would later have the same predicament. When forced to come to grips with armored knights they suffered significant casualties - even Mongol “heavies” were ~light cavalry compared to European knights. The Crusaders came to rely on the mass charge of knights because if you could pin the enemy army into receiving it, it tended to end the fight. The answer then was not to pinned and only resort to melee until said knights were exhausted, isolated, fleeing or wounded - with any luck, all of the above. So superior mobility and firepower vs. superior striking power. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-historical-massed-cavalry-vs-cavalry-battles/812219/40 "2018-04-14T20:38:49Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Shooting a bow from a moving horse is hard. Like \*really \*hard. You have to start learning as a child, and you know who teaches their children to shoot from horseback? Steppe and desert nomads, so that they’ll be able to help protect their flocks from wolves, and maybe do some hunting. And if that means you have a horde of horseman who happen to know how to use a bow… well, why not take them out for a ride? > [@AK84](#): > > Exactly. Plus the rolling hills and river valleys which characterise much of the Western European terrain are _not_ suitable for horse archers. Plus there was a class distinction. The elite rode horses. The poor were lucky to have one to pull a plough if at all - and it wasn’t the sort to ride fast, even if they had the time or horse food to spare. The elite fought with swords, the poor stood and fired arrows or marched and stood with pikes and clubs. Only a nomadic herding horse culture had the egalitarian arrangement where even the poorest families could afford several horses and hours a day to practice riding. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-historical-massed-cavalry-vs-cavalry-battles/812219.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-historical-massed-cavalry-vs-cavalry-battles/812219.md?page=3)