# Real life "Super-Soldier" projects?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-super-soldier-projects/144809
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [December 25, 2002, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-super-soldier-projects/144809 "2002-12-25T02:57:16Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)
#### Post date: [December 25, 2002, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-super-soldier-projects/144809/1 "2002-12-25T02:57:16Z")
Here’s my weird and inappropriate question of the week…many fans of Science Fiction are familiar with the old standby plot device of the “Super Soldier project,” an unholy attempt by a secretive government organization to create, well, “Super Soldiers” through selective breeding or chemical/genetic engineering. My question is: have there ever been any real attempts at doing this in the real world? Aside from genetic engineering, which I’m willing to disregard out of hand. But I know the Nazis tried their hand at selective breeding (The “Lebensborn” project, as I recall), and I’ve heard incidental reports of troops from various countries being issued amphetamines at various times, to keep them up and going when manpower was in short supply (Like during the fall of Berlin…Nazis again.) But have there been any other attempts of the like by any other countries?
Well, thanks for your time,
Ranchoth
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### Author:  [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)
#### Post date: [December 25, 2002, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-super-soldier-projects/144809/2 "2002-12-25T03:06:12Z")
Well, the U.S. Air Force gives their pilots amphetamines before flights. Does that count?
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### Author:  [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)
#### Post date: [December 25, 2002, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-super-soldier-projects/144809/3 "2002-12-25T03:10:27Z")
Dunno, real life factors are more complex than Sci-fi factors.
How much better would a genetically or chemically enhanced soldier be in modern combat? Enough that it is worth spending Billions on developing them? Probably not.
To be so much better in terms of reflexes, strength, resilance and such they wouldn’t even resemble humans anymore. Why go through the trouble of a 5% increase in effectiveness that costs 1.3 billion dollars or build a tank that increases effectiveness by 25% or more and costs a fraction of it? Or smart bombers that destroy your superhumans from insane altitudes?
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### Author:  [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)
#### Post date: [December 25, 2002, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-super-soldier-projects/144809/4 "2002-12-25T03:20:30Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \*
> \*\*Well, the U.S. Air Force gives their pilots amphetamines before flights. Does that count? \*\*
Cite? Seems like this would hurt more than help.
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### Author:  [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)
#### Post date: [December 25, 2002, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-super-soldier-projects/144809/5 "2002-12-25T04:07:19Z")
> [@](#):
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> Stimulants and sedatives are currently used in US military and foreign commercial operations. There may be a role for stimulants such as modafanil, pemoline, methylphenidate, and amphetamines in defined settings. The same is true for short- and intermediate-acting sedatives.
[http://www.cami.jccbi.gov/AAM-400A/FASMB/FAS200202/Desync.htm](http://www.cami.jccbi.gov/AAM-400A/FASMB/FAS200202/Desync.htm)
Long range bombing missions are one example of a situation where amphetamines can be useful to airforce pilots.
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [December 25, 2002, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-super-soldier-projects/144809/6 "2002-12-25T04:19:15Z")
Soldiering, even at the elite level, isn’t just about physical strength and endurance; it also requires attitude and rapid flexibility. The problem is that popular media likes to portray elite soldiers as blank-faced _Universal Soldier_-ish zombie robots. In reality, the “Unisols” would be slaughtered by any enemy army with soldiers that were quick-witted and adaptable, as the Delta-Force and Army Rangers are.
Trying to build up an elite corps is mainly a manner of taking a large group of candidates and eliminating the unsuitable. In any large population (say, 20 million) some will be naturally aggressive enough to consider a career in the military (or as a police officer, fireman, etc). If one percent joins the military, and one percent of them get advanced training, and one percent of _them_ form an elite corps, you end up with 20 “super soldiers”, without having to invest anything in genetic engineering. Give those 20 advanced weapons, air support and rapid communications and they’ll be “super” enough to handle just about anything. No government system has ever shown the ability to raise children, so I doubt we’ll see one anytime soon.
With genetic engineering applied to the _whole_ population to reduce the incidence of cancer, heart disease, diabetes, asthma, you may find more than one percent of one percent is physically suitable, but a person is ultimately more than their genetics. Your childhood experiences determines largely what kind of adult you are, and for some small percentage of us, that kind of adult is someone who can stay calm while people are shooting at them.
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### Author:  [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)
#### Post date: [December 25, 2002, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-super-soldier-projects/144809/7 "2002-12-25T04:19:53Z")
There is a lot of research into stimulants or related products that will allow special forces soliders to stay awake and reasonably sharp for days at a time. There was a thread here some time ago on this very subject.
[Military looks to drugs for battle readiness](http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2002/020809-drugs1.htm)
> [@](#):
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> “The capability to resist the mental and physiological effects of sleep deprivation will fundamentally change current military concepts of ‘operational tempo’ and contemporary orders of battle for the military services,” states a document from the Pentagon’s Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA). “In short, the capability to operate effectively, without sleep, is no less than a 21st Century revolution in military affairs that results in operational dominance across the whole range of potential U.S. military employments.”
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> A ‘radical approach’
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> What’s called for, according to DARPA, is a “radical approach” to achieve “continuous assisted performance” for up to seven days. This would actually involve much more than the “linear, incremental and … limited” approaches of stimulants like caffeine and amphetamines.
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> “Futurists say that if anything’s going to happen in the way of leaps in technology, it’ll be in the field of medicine,” says retired Rear Adm. Stephen Baker, the Navy’s former chief of operational testing and evaluation, who is now at the Center for Defense Information in Washington. “This ‘better warrior through chemistry’ field is being looked at very closely,” says Admiral Baker, whose career includes more than 1,000 aircraft-carrier landings as a naval aviator. "It’s part of the research going on that is very aggressive and wide open
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [December 25, 2002, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-super-soldier-projects/144809/8 "2002-12-25T04:20:37Z")
Whoops, the last sentence of the second paragraph should have been the last sentence of the third paragraph.
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### Author:  [@Incubus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incubus)
#### Post date: [December 25, 2002, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-super-soldier-projects/144809/9 "2002-12-25T05:14:55Z")
Okay, but what about spending billions on making _tougher_ soldiers? I think it would be neat to have soldiers who could shrug off small arms fire, or be resistant to radiation and chemical agents for example. Or with radically enhanced senses to operate equipment more efficiently. Nobody’s mentioned this yet.
How much price to you put on one dead soldier? can you even financially argue that it would just simply be cheaper to let them roll the dice with conventional hazards, or pay money to ensure their survival in the worst of conditions?
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [December 25, 2002, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-super-soldier-projects/144809/10 "2002-12-25T05:54:05Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by Incubus \*
> \*\*Okay, but what about spending billions on making _tougher_ soldiers? I think it would be neat to have soldiers who could shrug off small arms fire, or be resistant to radiation and chemical agents for example. Or with radically enhanced senses to operate equipment more efficiently. Nobody’s mentioned this yet.
You could get many of those benefits by investing in kevlar uniforms, night-vision goggles and other gizmos that are far cheaper and more reliable then genetic tinkering.
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### Author:  [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)
#### Post date: [December 25, 2002, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-super-soldier-projects/144809/11 "2002-12-25T06:15:00Z")
And how exactly are you going to force your genetically engineered children to become soldiers anyway? The 13th Amendment to the constitution prohibits involuntary servitude. You can’t just create a bunch of genetically engineered babies and raise them as slaves. Unless you run a dictatorship there is no way to keep the soldiers enslaved, they might just as well decide to become violinists and floral designers rather than soldiers.
Babies require 24 hour care. It is much much much more efficient to let these babies be raised by volunteers for free than it is to try to create government military orphanages. And if these super soldiers are so efficient, how are you going to keep them from killing off their slavemasters and taking control of the country for themselves?
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [December 25, 2002, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-super-soldier-projects/144809/12 "2002-12-25T06:35:03Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by Lemur866 \*
> they might just as well decide to become violinists and floral designers rather than soldiers.
“Buy this flower arrangement or I’ll RIP YOUR LUNGS OUT, MAGGOT!”
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### Author:  [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)
#### Post date: [December 25, 2002, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-super-soldier-projects/144809/13 "2002-12-25T17:30:35Z")
I’ve heard several things on this subject, but alas all of them are “things I read somewhere”, so if anyone can provide cites (or sites) I would be grateful.
During WWII, there was a rumor (which after the war proved to be false) that Germany was using anabolic steroids to enable their airman to improve their endurance on bombing flights (remember the planes then were unheated and unpressurized). The US took this seriously enough that steroid research was given **higher priority** than developing antibiotics!
Supposedly in the Soviet Union during the 20s and 30s, the intelligence apparatus (NKVD, or their predecessor?) operated orphanages in which the children were raised to belong to a secret police “tribe” or “cult”, rather than Soviet society as a whole.
In the US there supposedly was a trial program to test whether taking antidepressants like Prozak would help soldiers cope with stress better and reduced the incidence of post-combat trauma. But the Orwellian implications of the program raised too many hackles and the test was abandoned.
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### Author:  [@Incubus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incubus)
#### Post date: [December 25, 2002, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-super-soldier-projects/144809/14 "2002-12-25T17:46:49Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \*
> \*\*You could get many of those benefits by investing in kevlar uniforms, night-vision goggles and other gizmos that are far cheaper and more reliable then genetic tinkering. \*\*
Last I heard kevlar was mainly used to protect against _shrapnel_ and not bullets. I implore you to tell me of a body armor that could protect against .50 caliiber bullets.
Despite technology, wars are still won by the people operating the machines. I think enhancing soldiers to be able to survive wounds that would be fatal for normal people, and having the mental tenacity to be able to do their job for long beyond that of a normal person has serious tactical advantages.
Either that or robot soldiers, both ideas are things I like 🙂
_cue in the Terminator theme_
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### Author:  [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)
#### Post date: [December 25, 2002, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-super-soldier-projects/144809/15 "2002-12-25T18:01:01Z")
> [@](#):
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> _Originally posted by Sam Stone_
> Well, the U.S. Air Force gives their pilots amphetamines before flights. Does that count?
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Cisco \*
> \*\*Cite? Seems like this would hurt more than help. \*\*
[http://www.wisinfo.com/journal/spjlocal/278422400484558.shtml](http://www.wisinfo.com/journal/spjlocal/278422400484558.shtml)
[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2595641.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2595641.stm)
[http://www.vegsource.com/talk/flame/messages/72757.html](http://www.vegsource.com/talk/flame/messages/72757.html)
[http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q="friendly+fire"+canadian+"go+pills"+amphetamines&btnG=Google+Search](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22friendly+fire%22+canadian+%22go+pills%22+amphetamines&btnG=Google+Search)
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [December 25, 2002, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-super-soldier-projects/144809/16 "2002-12-25T18:48:03Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by Incubus \*
> Last I heard kevlar was mainly used to protect against _shrapnel_ and not bullets. I implore you to tell me of a body armor that could protect against .50 caliiber bullets.
Sure, it’s called a “tank”. I find it hard to imagine any genetically-engineered person who had tougher skin than could be supplied by conventional armor, let alone depleted Uranium. Rather than spend oodles of billions on genetic engineering, you’d be better off improving tanks and armored personnel carriers. I can picture one of the heavy-armored suits from _Starship Troopers_ (the book) long before I can see a super-soldier.
> [@](#):
>
> Despite technology, wars are still won by the people operating the machines. I think enhancing soldiers to be able to survive wounds that would be fatal for normal people, and having the mental tenacity to be able to do their job for long beyond that of a normal person has serious tactical advantages.
There are already people who can do pretty remarkable things, through physical training, mental toughness and sheer adrenaline. Giving them stimulants could help a lot, too. Thing is, war isn’t slugging away at each other until one person quits, and hasn’t been since World War One. With the increased speed of combat, it’s far more valuable to be able to hit the enemy quickly and unexpectedly and escape than it is to stand there and take hits.
> [@](#):
>
> Either that or robot soldiers, both ideas are things I like 🙂
> _cue in the Terminator theme_
One trend now is to design drones that are controlled from a distance by a human oeprator, so you get the metal armor, electronic senses, jet speed and still have a human brain in control. That looks to be a highly effective combination.
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### Author:  [@dave316](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dave316)
#### Post date: [December 25, 2002, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-super-soldier-projects/144809/17 "2002-12-25T19:00:11Z")
[http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2002/03/14/army-uniform.htm](http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2002/03/14/army-uniform.htm)
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### Author:  [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)
#### Post date: [December 25, 2002, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-super-soldier-projects/144809/18 "2002-12-25T19:21:16Z")
> [@](#):
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> ing WWII, there was a rumor (which after the war proved to be false) that Germany was using anabolic steroids to enable their airman to improve their endurance on bombing flights (remember the planes then were unheated and unpressurized
Also a rumor that the germans had their solders test/use some drug that allowed them to march 90 miles no-stop.
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### Author:  [@Slugworth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slugworth)
#### Post date: [December 25, 2002, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-super-soldier-projects/144809/19 "2002-12-25T19:27:41Z")
Aww, Dave beat me to it.
Incubus - Look into 18mm ceramic plates that slip into a kevlar vest, capable of stopping a 7.62mm NATO round.
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### Author:  [@SC\_Wolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SC_Wolf)
#### Post date: [December 25, 2002, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-life-super-soldier-projects/144809/20 "2002-12-25T19:54:20Z")
**Slugwoth** , last time I checked, .50 caliber was a larger round than 7.62mm NATO, thereby having more mass and transferning more kinetic energy into its target. Just because your ceramic plate can stop 7.62mm NATO, doesn’t mean it can stop the .50 caliber that **Incubus** was talking about. 🙂
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