Real Motivation For Japanese Whaling?

[Huerta88]

@Sage_Rat

If they came out and said, “We’re aware that some animals are endangered. We don’t want to nor intend to drive any animal extinct. But, for ones that aren’t we see no reason to stop hunting.” No one would have any cause to complain about them.

No legitimate cause for complaint. We both know many, many people would be flipping out about killing any number of photogenic mammals, no matter the endangered status or lack thereof.

That’s part of the side of me that sympathizes with the Japanese (at least as to arguably-sustainable whale species, they’re actually probably a lot more defensible on whales than they are on their mad and irresponsible attitude to bluefin tuna). The other part is that (as a resident of a country that often finds itself in a minority of one on various policy issues) I don’t always think being a lone holdout makes you wrong.

[DragonAsh]

@Huerta88

Correct. I never questioned the whalers’ motives, that’s capitalism and custom. If my OP wasn’t clear, I questioned the motive of the government, which makes possible a scale of whale hunt that the market would not otherwise sustain, through subsidies and, not incidentally, substantial investment in Coast Guard protection of the whaling fleet from protestors.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-1608344.html

Slight quibble: the substantial investment for protection of the whaler fleet is ony needed because of the eco-terrorists and their ilk.

Secondly - if you want to complain about government subsidies, look closer to home: The US pays out $20 billion a year to farmers alone.

Thirdly - there is no need for Japan to utilize any ‘scientific loophole’. Attempts to ban commercial whaling go back to the 1970s, and for years the IWC failed to gain a majority vote for the ban. Countries voting against the ban include Japan, Russia, Iceland and Norway. After several such failed attempts, the IWC increased its membership from around 15 to almost 40, with an increase mainly from non-whaling nations to attempt to increase the number of votes for the ban. The ban was finally approved by teh IWC in 1982 - but (key point here) according to the IWC’s only by-laws, countries that object to the ban (such as Japan and Norway) are not bound to it.

I can’t speak for Norway or Iceland etc, but I know enough about how Japan works to know that this would be a fairly easy political solution: Simply ignore the entire issue for six months or a year or so. Tell the Sea Shepards incompetents to go bother someone else for a while. Give Japan’s politicians room to wind down whaling operations in a way that doesn’t make them look like they’re ‘caving in’ to foreign pressure.

[sqweels]

@DragonAsh

I can’t speak for Norway or Iceland etc, but I know enough about how Japan works to know that this would be a fairly easy political solution: Simply ignore the entire issue for six months or a year or so. Tell the Sea Shepards incompetents to go bother someone else for a while. Give Japan’s politicians room to wind down whaling operations in a way that doesn’t make them look like they’re ‘caving in’ to foreign pressure.

So you recommend appeasement?

[Ludovic]

@DragonAsh

Secondly - if you want to complain about government subsidies, look closer to home: The US pays out $20 billion a year to farmers alone.

I guess that makes it okay then :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[YogSothoth]

The Japanese should just turn some of their many strict social rituals on themselves and say they are deeply ashamed that the right action could not be seen by their previous incompetent leaders and that they were wrong, and will stop all whaling from now on because the smarter countries in the West have told them to.

[DragonAsh]

@sqweels

So you recommend appeasement?

Do you want to stop whaling, or just look good for the camera?
:rolleyes: Sheesh.

I was more thinking along the lines of what Australia was trying to do up until recently (i.e., a secret deal with Japan over whale hunts). Basically tell Japan you’ll cool down the rhetoric, keep Sea Shepard away, maybe some other agreements, and the expectation is that Japan starts winding it down.

[DragonAsh]

@Ludovic

I guess that makes it okay then :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Roll your eyes all you want: the whole point was there is nothing inherently wrong with government subsidies. Unless you want to argue that all government subsidies are wrong, in which case we have a whole different debate on our hands. If you agree that government subsidies are fine, then your whole argument seems to be that you don’t want some foreign government subsidizing a legal business for its citizens that you for some unknown, irrational reason, don’t like.

I think the whole whaling thing is silly, and given Japan’s problems there are many, many better uses for that whaling subsidy money…even though the sums are trivial (less than $15mn/yr). But do you really think you have the right to tell Japan not to spend money killing one animal when our government pays people to kill other animals?

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@DragonAsh

Roll your eyes all you want: the whole point was there is nothing inherently wrong with government subsidies. Unless you want to argue that all government subsidies are wrong, in which case we have a whole different debate on our hands. If you agree that government subsidies are fine, then your whole argument seems to be that you don’t want some foreign government subsidizing a legal business for its citizens that you for some unknown, irrational reason, don’t like.

I think the whole whaling thing is silly, and given Japan’s problems there are many, many better uses for that whaling subsidy money…even though the sums are trivial (less than $15mn/yr). But do you really think you have the right to tell Japan not to spend money killing one animal when our government pays people to kill other animals?

But it gives the Japanese whaling industry an unfair advantage over all the whaling industries of all the other whaling nations. Greenpeace should start a whaling company and then sue Japan under the WTO to get them to stop the subsidy. They would only have to kill a few dozen whales and in the long run isn’t it worth killing a few of the ugly, stupider whales to save the cuter more intelligent whales?

[Ludovic]

@DragonAsh

Roll your eyes all you want: the whole point was there is nothing inherently wrong with government subsidies.

I happen to think that whaling subsidies, and most agri/aquaculture subsidies in general, are wrong. That doesn’t mean I think all subsidies are wrong.

So if I were to come down against whaling subsidies in this thread, it wouldn’t mean I would be ignoring american argicultural subsidies or that I think they’re AOK but hypocritically attacking Japans: rather, it would just mean that I was addressing the topic of this thread. If we had another thread about American agriculture, I would be equally opposed in that thread, perhaps moreso because the topic hits closer to home.

[Norse]

@YogSosoth

The Japanese should just turn some of their many strict social rituals on themselves and say they are deeply ashamed that the right action could not be seen by their previous incompetent leaders and that they were wrong, and will stop all whaling from now on because the smarter countries in the West have told them to.

If whaling per se was inherently wrong, I might agree with your post. However, since I don’t think that it’s inherently wrong to kill edible animals (provided that you don’t kill endangered species and provided that it doesn’t cause more animal suffering than industrial livestock farming does), I can’t agree with you.

As has been mentioned before, the minke whale is not an endangered species. I don’t care how cute it is, or if it’s become a symbol animal for some “environmentalist” groups like Greenpeace or PETA. It’s not endangered, it’s about as intelligent as the average cow or sheep, and some people find pleasure in eating it. That makes it OK (in my book, at least) to kill it and eat it.

[DragonAsh]

@Damuri_Ajashi

But it gives the Japanese whaling industry an unfair advantage over all the whaling industries of all the other whaling nations.

First of all - if there really were complaints it would have to come from other whaling nations. Why would the US care about whether or not Japan wasted taxpayer money on whaling?

Secondly - did you actually have any knowledge of the topic at hand? You do know that Norway, for example, supports its whaling industry through subsidies, including to cover R&D, DNA testing, direct grants, fuel and transport costs, and general fisheries subsidies? Iceland also has direct and indirect subsidies. There is no ‘unfair advantage over all other whaling nations’.

There are various reasons for government subsidies. Some reasons are good. Some are bad. Some government subsidies are aimed at helping the development of a new technology (think solar energy, etc). Other subsidies are aimed at preserving an industry, either through short-term issues (think the government bailing out the auto industry, or the airlines after 9/11) or to prevent the industry from dying out completely (Japan has been involved in whaling for over a thousand years, with whaling mentioned as far back as the 7th century A.D.). Some subsidies are aimed at encouraging job creation. Some subsidies are pure protectionism, to be sure, and in many cases any direct benefit to that industry might be more than offset by other indirect economic costs. Which of course begs the question of how to measure the cost (if any) of potentially losing a thousand-year old tradition. For example, the US government offers subsidies aimed at native americans, including for cultural resources and national tribal organizations.

No one has yet to offer any rational reason as to why whaling is wrong. ‘Because they’re an endangered species’ is not an argument for the species being hunted, which is dominated by minke whales - essentially big cows that swim. Even the most pessimistic of estimates puts the population at around at least 650,000. Let’s suppose exactly half are female, so 325,000. Let’s further assume that just 1% of all females give birth each year. That’s 3,250 new whales a year - well below the approx. 1,700 currently killed by Iceland, Norway and Japan combined. And the birth rate is certainly higher (the average adult female minke apparently gives birth every 2-3 years).

Quite frankly, whaling in Japan specifically survives in part because of the perceived ‘racist attitudes’ on the part of predominantly Western activists - note that I haven’t seen any TV shows about Sea Shepard attacking Norweigan ships.

Imagine if China or Japan decided that they were going to protest kangaroo hunting and kangaroo meat consumption, or beef production, then turn it into a TV show. Are you sanguine as to what kind of reception that would get in the US or Australia?

[YogSothoth]

If Japan only hunted Minkes, I think the objection would be less. But they hunt a smaller number of other whales that are more vulnerable to extinction. They need to cut that shit out before we have another whale death probe come to destroy the earth