# REAL Secret Weapons? (Foo Fighter!) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 2, 2010, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-secret-weapons-foo-fighter/538000 "2010-05-02T02:30:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![boilercake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@boilercake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boilercake)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-secret-weapons-foo-fighter/538000/1 "2010-05-02T02:30:55Z")
What fabled/mystical secret weapon, anytime in history, has reliably subsequently been revealed as actual? I guess I’m talking something in the Foo Fighter-type realm, not nuclear arms type stuff that had an actual known scientife ramp up. ---
**Author:** ![Patch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a183cd/32.png) [@Patch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patch)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-secret-weapons-foo-fighter/538000/2 "2010-05-02T02:53:20Z")
> [@boilercake](#): > > What fabled/mystical secret weapon, anytime in history, has reliably subsequently been revealed as actual? I guess I’m talking something in the Foo Fighter-type realm, not nuclear arms type stuff that had an actual known scientife ramp up. Does the F-117 Stealth Fighter count? ---
**Author:** ![jakesteele](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed8c4c/32.png) [@jakesteele](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jakesteele)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-secret-weapons-foo-fighter/538000/3 "2010-05-02T09:48:59Z")
H.A.A.R.P. It came from Tesla’s infamous death ray shit. At least that’s what Alex told me. ---
**Author:** ![dogeman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/71e660/32.png) [@dogeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dogeman)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-secret-weapons-foo-fighter/538000/4 "2010-05-02T10:37:35Z")
> [@jakesteele](#): > > H.A.A.R.P. It came from Tesla’s infamous death ray shit. At least that’s what Alex told me. HAARP hardly meets the OPs requirements of a _weapon._ ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-secret-weapons-foo-fighter/538000/5 "2010-05-02T15:01:21Z")
> [@jakesteele](#): > > H.A.A.R.P. It came from Tesla’s infamous death ray shit. At least that’s what Alex told me. Who’s this Alex guy? Does he have a newsletter I might subscribe to? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-secret-weapons-foo-fighter/538000/6 "2010-05-02T15:05:21Z")
Back at the OP, the first jet-powered fighters were pretty astonishing when they were revealed. Yes, each side had secret engineering efforts underway and instantly recognized what the other was doing when it was revealed. But when the first ME262s appeared in the skies over Europe, nobody in-theater had any idea how a propeller-less airplane could fly, much less fly a bunch faster than they could. To them it was a complete surprise. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-secret-weapons-foo-fighter/538000/7 "2010-05-02T15:34:05Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Back at the OP, the first jet-powered fighters were pretty astonishing when they were revealed. Yes, each side had secret engineering efforts underway and instantly recognized what the other was doing when it was revealed. > > But when the first ME262s appeared in the skies over Europe, nobody in-theater had any idea how a propeller-less airplane could fly, much less fly a bunch faster than they could. To them it was a complete surprise. Interesting story about the ME-262: Toward the end of the war there was a unit nicknamed “Watson’s Whizzers” that was tasked with capturing various pieces of German technology. They grabbed a bunch of 262’s and put them on a boat to New Jersey. They then flew them to Dayton for testing. I believe they camouflaged them at times, even going so far as to hang fake propellers on them. I always thought it would have been funny if, during the ferry flight to Dayton, one of them had to land at another airport. “What’s that?” “Nothing! Nothing to see here!” ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-secret-weapons-foo-fighter/538000/8 "2010-05-02T15:56:37Z")
> [@Mach Tuck](#): > > even going so far as to hang fake propellers on them. I don’t know about that, but they did put a fake prop on the Bell XP-59 when they moved it around at Muroc (now Edwards AFB). One pilot was said to have donned a gorilla mask, and possibly a fedora, and smoked a cigar when another aircraft came up to take a look. The idea was that the non-privy pilot would tell his friends, ‘I kid you not! There was a plane flying around without a prop! And its pilot was a gorilla smoking a cigar!’ ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-secret-weapons-foo-fighter/538000/9 "2010-05-02T16:44:10Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > But when the first ME262s appeared in the skies over Europe, nobody in-theater had any idea how a propeller-less airplane could fly, much less fly a bunch faster than they could. To them it was a complete surprise. That isn’t even remotely true. Google “Frank Whittle”. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-secret-weapons-foo-fighter/538000/10 "2010-05-02T17:16:43Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > That isn’t even remotely true. Google “Frank Whittle”. The thing is, they couldn’t Google Frank Whittle back then. I imagine there were some people who knew that jet engine aircraft were feasible, but I’m guessing it was an unknown quantity to most. The ME-262 was the first operational jet fighter. The first experimental jet plane (which was German) flew in 1939, although Whittle had done his work prior to that. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-secret-weapons-foo-fighter/538000/11 "2010-05-02T17:30:04Z")
> [@Mach Tuck](#): > > The first experimental jet plane (which was German) flew in 1939, although Whittle had done his work prior to that. The first jet-powered aircraft to fly (albeit accidentally, and it crashed) was the [Coandă-1910](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coand%C4%83-1910), which flew in 1910. The He-178 was the first _practical_ jet aircraft, and the first to fly with a _turbojet_ engine. (The Coandă-1910 used a piston engine to turn the compressor of the jet engine.) Hans von Ohain was apparently unaware of Whittle’s work when he started working on a similar engine in 1935. But Whittle’s patent was granted in 1932, and was available using resources at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-secret-weapons-foo-fighter/538000/12 "2010-05-02T17:37:32Z")
Greek fire is a good candidate. Even today, we have some pretty good ideas about how it could have been done, but we still don’t have the actual formula. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-secret-weapons-foo-fighter/538000/13 "2010-05-02T18:55:18Z")
> [@Mach Tuck](#): > > The thing is, they couldn’t Google Frank Whittle back then. I imagine there were some people who knew that jet engine aircraft were feasible, but I’m guessing it was an unknown quantity to most. Yes, but the point is that the bloody RAF knew what a jet engine was. So did unknown aircraft manufacturer Gloster, and obscure engine manufacturer Rolls-Royce. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-secret-weapons-foo-fighter/538000/14 "2010-05-02T19:01:29Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Who’s this Alex guy? Does he have a newsletter I might subscribe to? I’d tell you, but I’d have to phrase it in the form of a question, ;), ;). > [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > That isn’t even remotely true. Google “Frank Whittle”. But remember, the OP is asking for mythical weapons. If no one had thought of it, then it’d just be an innovation, not a weapon of legend. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-secret-weapons-foo-fighter/538000/15 "2010-05-02T19:02:18Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Yes, but the point is that the bloody RAF knew what a jet engine was. You do realise that the jet engine was secret, don’t you? We couldn’t tell our pilots about them for fear of alerting the Germans to our own jet program. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-secret-weapons-foo-fighter/538000/16 "2010-05-02T19:14:28Z")
Re: The P-59: From [_The Jet Race and the Second World War_](http://books.google.com/books?id=znlqEwF-U5kC&pg=PA133&lpg=PA133&dq=%22p-59%22+%22Jack+Woolams%22+gorilla&source=bl&ots=nA2ZYh99EW&sig=jo8UhJph1HKJiEqOtzIIIrRKJos&hl=en&ei=dcvdS93BJIuasgO6lr3WBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CCwQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=%22p-59%22%20%22Jack%20Woolams%22%20gorilla&f=false)" > [@](#): > > Test pilot Jack Wollams used his bowler had and an old Halloween mask for the ultimate joke. A group of P-38 _Lightning_ trainees were flying over the desert when they were joined by a strange plane – without a propeller! And even if that was not strange enough, it was being flown by a gorilla, wearing a bowler had, and smoking a cigar! The “gorilla” waved and dove away from the astonished trainees.[sup]22[/sup] Woolams had established grounds for rumors for months to come. From [here](http://aerofiles.com/liteside2.html): > [@](#): > > During initial flight testing of P-59 at George AFB (then Hawes Field) CA, Bell personnel could be distinguished by their trademark black derby hats. Although the airspace around George and Muroc Dry Lake was restricted, P-38 pilots from a nearby Army field would occasionally invade the area to see what was going on at the “secret” base. > > ``` > On one low-speed flight, Bell test-pilot Jack Woolams spotted one of the snoopers approaching, and was ready for him. He pulled on a rubber gorilla mask he had brought along, put on his derby, and stuck a big cigar in his mouth, then let the P-38 pull alongside his jet. He glared back at the stunned pilot, who quickly broke off and headed for home. > > There was no official follow-up to this episode, but it was the source of much hilarity among Bell workers who speculated about the story being told that night at some Officers Club of a propellerless plane being flown by a cigar-smoking gorilla wearing a derby! It might well have been the forerunner of the flying saucer tales a decade later. (*— K O Eckland via personal correspondence*) > > ``` From [here](http://yarchive.net/mil/jet_gorilla.html): > [@](#): > > Jack Woolams, the Bell test pilot, was assigned to Muroc to flight test the P-59. Some P-38 pilots were also stationed at Muroc at the other end of the field. They were quite curious about the secret project and the civvie pilots. Contrary to regulations, pilots talk, especially to other pilots, especially at bars, and soon the Bell pilots knocking back a few at a Rosamond watering hole were boasting that they were testing an airplane that could fly without a propeller. The army flyboys maintained that such a thing was impossible and that the Bell pilots were a bunch of liars. > > Jack Woolams made a trip into Hollywood, visited a costume supply house and rented a gorilla suit. One day he took off in the P-59 dressed in his gorilla suit and sought out a lone P-38. He pulled alongside the P-38 and waved. So the army pilot saw not only an airplane without a propeller flying along just as nice as you please, but also one being flown by a gorilla! > > That evening at the Rosamond watering hole, Woolams asked the gathered army pilots if they’d heard that a gorilla had escaped from a nearby traveling circus and was seen near Muroc. A couple of the army pilots looked at each other, but all denied knowing anything about a gorilla. And they also stopped calling the civilian pilots liars. > > As Woolams said, “Fun is always better than a fight.” So it was a derby, and not a fedora. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-secret-weapons-foo-fighter/538000/17 "2010-05-02T19:15:20Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > That isn’t even remotely true. Google “Frank Whittle”. Let me clarify. The generic pilots & squadron level intel goons in both the RAF & USAAC/ USAAF had no clue what a jet was. To them it was a complete surprise. When they sent the reports up to HQ, eventually it got to a level where folks in the know said “Blimey, the Jerrys beat us on this one. Get Whittle on the phone and tell 'im to make all haste.” I’m not suggesting that nobody in the secret research departments of the US or British forces, or their manufacturers, knew what a jet was. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-secret-weapons-foo-fighter/538000/18 "2010-05-02T19:27:16Z")
> [@Mach Tuck](#): > > Interesting story about the ME-262: > > Toward the end of the war there was a unit nicknamed “Watson’s Whizzers” that was tasked with capturing various pieces of German technology. They grabbed a bunch of 262’s and put them on a boat to New Jersey. They then flew them to Dayton for testing. I believe they camouflaged them at times, even going so far as to hang fake propellers on them. > > I always thought it would have been funny if, during the ferry flight to Dayton, one of them had to land at another airport. “What’s that?” > > “Nothing! Nothing to see here!” I was stationed at Nellis during the time the F-117 was still secret and was flown out of Tonopah. Everybody at Nellis knew there was something large-scale & really secret going on up there, but nobody knew what it was. Unless you worked up there; and those folks didn’t talk, period. The F-117s only flew at night so they could not be seen from the ground. What they looked like was one of the bigger secrets about them, although nobody outside really knew that fact yet either. There were procedures published in the local Nellis airfield operations regs for dealing with a diversion of that unit’s aircraft to Nellis. Without describing exactly what they were talking about, the regs provided that it/they were to be taxied or towed immediately to a small hangar on the far side of the airfield and secured inside with a hefty guard contingent outside. If one was immovable after landing then it, or its wreckage, was to be completely surrounded by trucks and then a tent hastily set up over it. Bottom line: Keeping long-gestation new technology as close-hold as possible until the decisive moment was, and still is, serious business taken seriously. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-secret-weapons-foo-fighter/538000/19 "2010-05-02T19:34:18Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Yes, but the point is that the bloody RAF knew what a jet engine was. So did unknown aircraft manufacturer Gloster, and obscure engine manufacturer Rolls-Royce. But that is your point not his. HIS point was that most people IN THEATRE in the war didnt have a flying frack about jet engines. So, yes it was a big surprise to those folks. Sure, the reports gots back to those in the know and the secret research labs, but that wasnt who he was talking about was it? ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-secret-weapons-foo-fighter/538000/20 "2010-05-02T21:25:26Z")
How about the [tank](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_I_tank)? It literally came out of nowhere. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-secret-weapons-foo-fighter/538000.md?page=2)