# Real world relationships of Islamic men and their wives **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 30, 2001, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-world-relationships-of-islamic-men-and-their-wives/84593 "2001-09-30T05:01:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2001, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-world-relationships-of-islamic-men-and-their-wives/84593/21 "2001-10-02T10:08:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by celestina \* > Bluesman, that woman wasn’t PERMITTED to shake her husband’s friend’s hand in front of her husband. That’s just bizarre. I guess I’m going to sound ignorant here, but I just can’t wrap my mind around cultural/religious? strictures that prohibit men from touching women they aren’t related or married to and that prohibit women from touching or even speaking to men they aren’t related or married to. I just don’t understand. Do they think that they’re going to get cooties from the opposite sex or something? Let’s be fair here - this is by no means unique to Muslim cultures, nor is it universal among Muslims. Extreme Orthodox Jews such as the Hasidics also have this prohibition of touching between the sexes. Public touching is forbidden between adults of the opposite gender, even when they’re related by blood or marriage. I once knew some college students studying religions other than their own who wanted to interview a Lubavitcher in Chicago (a branch of very conservative Judaism) and the rabbi would only speak to the married female students - he did not feel it was appropriate for a man of his position to speak to an unrelated single woman. And he insisted on a chaperone for all parties, including himself. It’s not a matter of “cooties”, it’s a matter of what’s considered proper and respectful sexual relations. There is a quite a variance among Muslims. We have a number of Muslim women where I work and they are strong and formidable personalities that don’t take guff from anyone, and a couple are definite family matriarchs. Other Muslim women I’ve known, both immigrant and born in America, do seem much more passive. Partly this is the individual’s personality, but also her background, culture, and the sect of Islam she belongs to. > [@](#): > > What if their husbands get sick or die and they have no other male relatives who can work or go out and interact with the outside world? Then what will they do under such a restrictive system? Here in America - they get a job or wind up on welfare. Overseas - that varies of course. The Koran states that women and orphans should be taken care of, but doesn’t get too specific if I recall correctly. Perhaps in some places they have some sort of welfare for them. For damn sure leaving widows to beg and starve in the streets of Kabul is NOT a mandate of Islam but a perversion. Also remember that in many Muslim countries women DO work and DO have careers. Prior to 1986, 40% of the doctors in Afganistan were women, as were 70% of the teachers at all levels of education. Islam in no way forbids women working outside the home - where such things are forbidden that is from the local culture and not the Koran. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2001, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-world-relationships-of-islamic-men-and-their-wives/84593/22 "2001-10-02T10:13:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Corrvin \* > \<\\> > > I’m sure if someone was in danger that it would be okay to help them out even if you normally wouldn’t touch them, just as if your house was on fire you would run outside naked (which you would not normally do). _sigh_ In most Muslim countries this is probably true, but it’s not a universal. In Afganistan women are not permitted medical treatment because that would mean contact with an unrelated man (Though I suppose if her husband was a doctor he could treat her). So if a woman is lying injured in the street and a man touched her hoping to assist her that could be construed as adultery and both of them could be put to death. There have been a couple instances of women out on the street in Afganistan seeking medical aid for either themselves or their children being arrested and either beaten for being unescorted or executed for adultery. Granted, Afganistan is a hellhole that has little to do with mainstream Islam where people are generally more reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2001, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-world-relationships-of-islamic-men-and-their-wives/84593/23 "2001-10-02T15:20:34Z")
Come on, people, we’re too intelligent to fall into the trap of sterotyping an entire culture/faith by some anecdotes. Or trying to generalize across millions and millions of people (and marriages). Ugh! That disgusts me! That sort of thinking is what makes fanatics drive planes into buildings, as far as I am concerned. As others have noted, I think it’s as difficult to say what an Islamic marriage is like as it would be for me to tell you what a “Christian” marriage is like. Because we have such a large population of Muslims around here, our local paper did an interesting in-depth story on several muslim women in the area. Even they really varied. In one house, the husband insisted on being present during the interview, but would not look at the female reporter directly because it wasn’t proper or appropriate. When that reporter interviewed other area women, some of them expressed chagrin at the beliefs espoused by this woman–she was ultra ultra conservative, and some of them felt that she wasn’t just different but actually wrong, perverting the teachings of Islam. They were pretty liberal, made a lot of choices, etc. And yes, there is a feminist movement within Islam. Really fascinating stuff. I might hate what some conservative christian preachers have to say about the role of men and women, but that doesn’t mean every Christian I know has a marriage that offends me. Some people pervert the bible, others probably twist the Koran around. ---
**Author:** ![celestina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/258eb7/32.png) [@celestina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/celestina)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2001, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-world-relationships-of-islamic-men-and-their-wives/84593/24 "2001-10-02T15:23:34Z")
Thank you, Corrvin and Broomstick, for your answers. Still, I have to wonder if this behavior is really done out of “respect” or fear of the opposite gender. I suspect that it is fear because it is human nature to fear what we do not know or understand. I’m just trying to understand what the fear is based on, and I admit, I’m not making too much progress. I realize I’m speaking from a Western, womanist bias, but I’m just failing to see how these strictures on behavior are reasoned to constitute respect. It’s all well and good to respect someone enough to not cast aspersions on their purity or whatever, but at the heart of this matter, men and women are individuals, and we are human beings, and we have to co-exist on this planet. Relationships must be based on trust. These prohibitions on interacting with the opposite sex undermine any notion of trust, asserting that men and women can’t control their passions, which I find a little disturbing and frankly not realistic. I’ve been around plenty of fellas whose bones I wanted to jump, but I managed to restrain myself just fine. I guess it may be difficult for a fella to control his passions if he’s never seen a woman’s ankle before and suddenly he gets a glimpse of one, but I just think that he should be able to respect her whether or not he’s able to see her ankle, or whatever. If men and women don’t interact more, communicate well, and understand each other, then it seems we can’t maximize our chances of co-existing well on this planet. This doesn’t mean men and women have to sleep around, as fun as that is, but I just fail to see how shaking someone’s hand, or giving them a hug, or speaking to them is such an awful thing. If God, Allah, Yahweh, or whatever you want to call your deity meant for men and women to live apart, then why not make it so from the getgo. I’m not disrepecting other cultures’ perspectives–folks can do whatever they want to–but I just don’t think this level of paranoia about the opposite sex is logical or realistic. And what the Taliban is doing goes beyond the level of illogical to the inhumane. I would just love to sit down and talk to these religous leaders who espouse these restrictions and ask them to explain to me fully what is going on, but of course they probably wouldn’t want to talk to me or to have me talk to them. [sigh] Okay, sorry if I’ve digressed here. I’ll shut up now. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2001, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-world-relationships-of-islamic-men-and-their-wives/84593/25 "2001-10-02T19:19:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Anthracite \* > **Women are slaves, second-class citizens, chattel in the eyes of the men. I can’t be open to the idea of a woman who is so subjugated and cowed by her “master” that she is not allowed to shake hands, handle money, or even _speak_ to a stranger.** I could be wrong, but didn’t Christianity have similar edicts a few centuries ago? Heck, there are even Christian groups today that teach that the man is the head of the household, and a woman’s role was to be submissive, dutiful and supportive of him. Don’t remember the group’s name offhand, but they were holding massive all-men rallies in sports arenas across the country a few years back (someone wanna help me out with a cite here?). In any event, it’s hard for me to get angry over (perceived, secondhand anecdotal) mistreatment of women under Islam when I remember that _all_ religions have cocked-up rules for various people at various times. ---
**Author:** ![Caricci](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85f322/32.png) [@Caricci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caricci)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2001, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-world-relationships-of-islamic-men-and-their-wives/84593/26 "2001-10-02T20:03:33Z")
I could be wrong, but didn’t Christianity have similar edicts a few centuries ago? Heck, there are even Christian groups today that teach that the man is the head of the household, and a woman’s role was to be submissive, dutiful and supportive of him. Don’t remember the group’s name offhand, but they were holding massive all-men rallies in sports arenas across the country a few years back (someone wanna help me out with a cite here?). \*\* [/QUOTE] I believe the guys in arenas are “The Promise Keepers”. And, The Southern Baptists place women in a submissive role in marriage; quite recently they made it their official policy. That’s one of the reasons Jimmy Carter cut ties with that denomination. I was home from work one day and saw that awful show “Wedding Story”. Two Christians were getting married and the bride vowed to submit to her husband as head of their marriage. I just shook my head in disbelief, but that’s just me. So, it’s not just a Muslim thing. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2001, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-world-relationships-of-islamic-men-and-their-wives/84593/27 "2001-10-02T22:11:14Z")
Regardless of how many religions have had some measure of submission/control over the female in the relationship in the past, it is still just as wrong today. No one would dare justify the slavery of children in Africa today (and I don’t mean child labor there either) by saying “oh, the US and the UK had slavery at one time”. People seem to really be walking on eggshells over this because it appears “racist” or “politically incorrect” to dare to criticize the beliefs of another culture. Cultural relativism at its absolute worst. Well, I refuse to tiptoe around the subject, and laugh nervously, hoping the issue will go away and not complicate my simple little life with “issues” that actually mean something. And it’s not just “some anecdotes” either. There is a wealth of information available on the mass degredation, slavery, torture, and murder of women in Afghanistan and under other fundamentalist Islamic regimes. That’s what should be disgusting people. Afghanistan is a human rights atrocity on this planet - and I can’t wait to hear the Afghan apologists on this Board try to demonstrate otherwise. I challenge anyone, in fact, to try and prove that the treatment of women in Afghanistan is not in violation of every single human rights charter ever signed between the current nations of this planet. And yes, I am pissed off. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2001, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-world-relationships-of-islamic-men-and-their-wives/84593/28 "2001-10-02T22:20:45Z")
What are you saying, Anth-that all Muslims are chauvenistic? That all Islam oppresses women? ---
**Author:** ![Rally\_Vincent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c37758/32.png) [@Rally\_Vincent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rally_Vincent)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2001, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-world-relationships-of-islamic-men-and-their-wives/84593/29 "2001-10-02T23:10:16Z")
I’ve noticed that in the fundamentalist aspect of Christianity, Judaism and Islam that there are similar ideals. Modesty, for example: in Chasidici Orthodox Judaism, women don’t have to wear veils that cover their faces, but they are supposed to wear long dresses, have their legs covered and not wear outfits that would reveal the shape of their waistline. That’s just one example. It is important to realize there are many shades of gray. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2001, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-world-relationships-of-islamic-men-and-their-wives/84593/30 "2001-10-03T02:38:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*What are you saying, Anth-that all Muslims are chauvenistic? > That all Islam oppresses women? \*\* Only a ignorant and prejudiced fool would lump together a people, nation, or religion under the word “all”. Is “most” more accurate, however? Or even “a majority”? It certainly is “a lot”. What about my points? Your very brusque question to me is as valid as me driving-by, asking you if you are prepared to defend the human rights record of fundamentalist Muslim countries. And if cultural relativism must be absolutely respected and embraced. And if the concept of “other cultures did it in the past/do it now, so why gripe” hold true in this case. Which is what I am responding to. Cultures that treat women as slaves, chattel, less than human beings, property, or baby machines are sick and worthless, and do not advance the cause of human rights and justice in this World. Regardless of whatever religion they cloak themselves in - Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, or Rastafarian. You decide to what extent my comments apply to any group, sect, or society, based on their actions. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2001, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-world-relationships-of-islamic-men-and-their-wives/84593/31 "2001-10-03T02:59:18Z")
No. But it seemed you were saying, “I shouldn’t have to be tolerant of them.” I don’t agree with their ideas, BUT at the same time, their ways are not my way. In Asian cultures, it is considered rude to shake hands-touching anyone is forbidden. In some cultures, belching is considered complimentary. It doesn’t necessarily mean that she is oppressed. I just feel you had a very kneejerk to it. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2001, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-world-relationships-of-islamic-men-and-their-wives/84593/32 "2001-10-03T03:50:41Z")
You can give me the white-sequined glove, because I am moonwalking out of this thread for good. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2001, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-world-relationships-of-islamic-men-and-their-wives/84593/33 "2001-10-03T04:25:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elbows \* > \*\* > …It’s true that the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world. In most of the places the men I met and interacted with were so tied to their Mama’s it was unbelievable. Outside it looked like they ran everything, all puffing and bravado. But the truth was it was their Mama’s that decided their every business, carreer, educational or matrimonial decision. When you think about it, they live with their Mama’s until they die, with their wives and children. > \*\* This argument was used to justify the oppression of women in the United States in the 19th century. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2001, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-world-relationships-of-islamic-men-and-their-wives/84593/34 "2001-10-03T19:16:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Caricci \* > I believe the guys in arenas are “The Promise Keepers”. {i}That’s\* the bunch. I remember reading about the rallys, but the name slipped my mind for some reason. > [@](#): > > So, it’s not just a Muslim thing. No doubts from me – which is why I’m confused why **Anthracite** got so explosive over Islam in particular… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-world-relationships-of-islamic-men-and-their-wives/84593.md?page=1)