# Reality finally sinking in - Iraq expectations lowered **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 15, 2005, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094 "2005-08-15T14:26:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094/101 "2005-08-19T23:13:41Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Which, I don’t know…_should have been taken into account while planning for this goddamn stupid war_, ya think? Are you arguing that Clinton would do Iraq invasion better? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094/102 "2005-08-19T23:31:00Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Are you arguing that Clinton would do Iraq invasion better? Not to speak for **jayjay** , or anything, but that’s a baseless question. The Iraq invasion was not needed (during 1993-2001 _or_ 2003). Clinton _did_ deal with Iraq better than George the Lesses did, inasmuch as he didn’t _have_ an [unnecessary] Iraq invasion. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094/103 "2005-08-19T23:34:47Z")
_:::cue ominous mucic:::_ This is your brain: > [@](#): > > Which, I don’t know…should have been taken into account while planning for this goddamn stupid war, ya think? This is your brain on **Isk** : > [@](#): > > Are you arguing that Clinton would do Iraq invasion better? Speak with your kids about the dangers of Isk, today. -This message brought to you by the Free America Foundation- ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094/104 "2005-08-19T23:42:19Z")
We had _competent_ leadership for Kosovo. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094/105 "2005-08-19T23:44:43Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Are you arguing that Clinton would do Iraq invasion better? Why, yes. Yes, I am. Because Clinton wouldn’t have done the Iraq invasion at all. Which would have been better. Rather, Clinton probably would have actually finished the job in Afghanistan and actually, y’know, _captured bin Laden_. Instead of saying to the press less than a year later that bin Laden wasn’t all that important to him and he hardly ever thought about him. Like Bush did. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094/106 "2005-08-19T23:52:54Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Are you arguing that Clinton would do Iraq invasion better? GW1 would have done it much better too. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094/107 "2005-08-20T00:05:07Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > GW1 would have done it much better too. So would, OG help us, Richard Nixon. And I truly believe that he was a better President than the one we’ve got. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094/108 "2005-08-20T00:21:12Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Rather, Clinton probably would have actually finished the job in Afghanistan and actually, y’know, captured bin Laden. Instead of saying to the press less than a year later that bin Laden wasn’t all that important to him and he hardly ever thought about him. 😛 I’d like to know how Clinton would have done a better job in Afghanistan…and how he would have captured ObL. Of course, thats empty speculation as he wasn’t president then, so we’ll never know…but what, specifically, do you figure Clinton would have done in Afghanistan that would have made it better and allowed the US a better chance of capturing ObL? -XT ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094/109 "2005-08-20T00:23:41Z")
Oh, and I agree…our expectations in Iraq ARE sinking here in the US. Bush DID mishandle the invasion of Iraq (by having an invasion at all), and I actually agree that just about anyone who has been president in the last 50 years, excluding Carter and Johnson, who stuck our crank into Iraq, could have handled things better. -XT ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094/110 "2005-08-20T00:47:26Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > …but what, specifically, do you figure Clinton would have done in Afghanistan that would have made it better and allowed the US a better chance of capturing ObL? How about not packing up his (unfortunately not toy) soldiers and looking for a chance to play cowboy in a nation that had no capability whatsoever to so much as give us the willies? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094/111 "2005-08-20T00:49:58Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > 😛 I’d like to know how Clinton would have done a better job in Afghanistan…and how he would have captured ObL. Of course, thats empty speculation as he wasn’t president then, so we’ll never know…but what, specifically, do you figure Clinton would have done in Afghanistan that would have made it better and allowed the US a better chance of capturing ObL? How about by simply not diverting the great majority of your forces to the bogus Iraq quagmire? No military analyst am I and no desire to become one, but just using common sense tells me that having somewhere in the vicinity of an extra 150 thousand men at your disposal in his pursuit just _might_ have made a difference. And no, I am not limiting myself to Bora Tora, but rather to all the time that’s gone by _since_. I’m fairly sure you speak Spanish, and if I am correct, it’s not a stretch to surmise that you’ve heard the following proverb (if nothing else, surely you know we love the simple wisdom contained therein): > [@](#): > > El que mucho abarca, poco aprieta Will you please do the honors translation-wise? ---
**Author:** ![Pazu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pazu/32/15522_2.png) [@Pazu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pazu)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094/112 "2005-08-20T01:02:56Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > I agree, Kosovo is not Iraq and Iraq is not Kosovo. > > Kosovo is not in the Middle East, has only two ethnic groups. > > Iraq is 40 times bigger, 13 times the population and so on… And it took Bush’s war to discover this…? ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094/113 "2005-08-20T01:04:02Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > El que mucho abarca, poco aprieta > > Will you please do the honors translation-wise? I got it! I got it! (Courtesy of AltaVista’s Babelfish handy-dandy translation program): “The one that much sandal, little tightens” 😕 Somehow, that doesn’t look right. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094/114 "2005-08-20T01:12:38Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > I got it! I got it! (Courtesy of AltaVista’s Babelfish handy-dandy translation program): > > “The one that much sandal, little tightens” > > 😕 Somehow, that doesn’t look right. :dubious: Heh. Courtesy of Google: > [@Google](#): > > He who attempts too much, accomplishes little. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094/115 "2005-08-20T01:29:59Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > …Clinton wouldn’t have done the Iraq invasion at all. Unfortunately, there is absolutely no evidence to support your statement. To the contrary, all the evidence points the other way. Clinton was pushing Saddam every half-a-chance he’s got, authorized multiple bombing campaigns and even put the goal of Iraq regime change into US law. Just think, issuing US federal law decree authorizing regime change in a sovereign country! This is way more brazen then what Reagan ever done towards USSR. Clinton never ever compromised with Saddam, and nobody in Clinton administration ever said anything like this: > [@](#): > > In Cairo, on February 24 2001, Powell said: “He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbours.” or this: > [@](#): > > Two months later, Condoleezza Rice also described a weak, divided and militarily defenceless Iraq. “Saddam does not control the northern part of the country,” she said. “We are able to keep his arms from him. His military forces have not been rebuilt.” [Cite](http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6456.htm) I think if it was not for ‘affaire Lewinsky’, Clinton might have done it. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094/116 "2005-08-20T01:56:30Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > I got it! I got it! (Courtesy of AltaVista’s Babelfish handy-dandy translation program): > > “The one that much sandal, little tightens” > > 😕 Somehow, that doesn’t look right. :dubious: Listen up, you dweeb, I am _trying_ to be serious here and you’re not helping. Geez, what do I hafta to do? Get self-righteous and smarmy? Just watch me. **jayjay** , nailed it in one. Glad to see the import of this topic hasn’t veered him off-track. Pretty good, huh? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094/117 "2005-08-20T01:57:01Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > I think if it was not for ‘affaire Lewinsky’, Clinton might have done it. What the fuck ever, **Isk**. You never make any sense anyway so I didn’t really expect any now. Sure…Clinton would have tried to invade Iraq. Whatever you say. Now go lick Georgie’s anus like a good little cultist. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094/118 "2005-08-20T02:07:00Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Listen up, you dweeb, I am _trying_ to be serious here and you’re not helping. Does this mean [the job offer’s](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6488818&postcount=129) been rescinded? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094/119 "2005-08-20T03:06:47Z")
To dispel the notion that Clinton did a nice clean job in Kosovo, [consider this](http://www.counterpunch.org/bodycount.html): > [@](#): > > During the first month of the war on Yugoslavia, the NATO planes and cruise missile made over 10,000 attacks. More than 2500 cruise missiles were launched and over 7,000 tons of explosives were dropped. The following list is based on information provided by the Yugoslavian Foreign Ministry. > > About 1,000 civilians, including 45 children … were killed and more than 4,500 sustained serious injuries Don’t miss it, **Red Fury**. It even has that bomber picture you like so much. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094/120 "2005-08-20T03:11:34Z")
Isn’t it amazing how the “b-b-b-but _Clinton_!” line of misdirection never, ever goes out of style ? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094.md?page=7)