# Reality finally sinking in - Iraq expectations lowered **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 15, 2005, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094 "2005-08-15T14:26:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094/121 "2005-08-20T03:12:27Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > We had _competent_ leadership for Kosovo. Oh come on; the main benefit there was that Clinton at least didn’t get 140,000 troops mired in a quagmire. The war was still ineptly run, as NATO succeeded in mostly killing innocent civilians and Chinese embassy staff, rather than enemy soldiers, and turning Kosovo into just as much of a hellhole as it was before except with different people getting run out of the country. It still wasn’t the monumental, Olympic-sized fuckup Iraq is, but it wasn’t competent. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094/122 "2005-08-20T03:14:06Z")
> [@Spiny Norman](#): > > Isn’t it amazing how the “b-b-b-but _Clinton_!” line of misdirection never, ever goes out of style ? “If Clinton did not exist, the Republicans would have to invent him.” ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094/123 "2005-08-20T03:15:05Z")
**Originally posted by New Iskander** "During the first month of the war on Yugoslavia, the NATO planes and cruise missile made over 10,000 attacks. More than 2500 cruise missiles were launched and over 7,000 tons of explosives were dropped. The following list is based on information provided by the Yugoslavian Foreign Ministry. About 1,000 civilians, including 45 children … were killed and more than 4,500 sustained serious injuries " Let’s guess how many American troops died during the Kosovo operation. I’ll give you a hint: It was less than 1. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094/124 "2005-08-20T03:19:39Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Unfortunately, there is absolutely no evidence to support your statement. To the contrary, all the evidence points the other way. Clinton was pushing Saddam every half-a-chance he’s got, authorized multiple bombing campaigns and even put the goal of Iraq regime change into US law. Just think, issuing US federal law decree authorizing regime change in a sovereign country! This is way more brazen then what Reagan ever done towards USSR. Clinton never ever compromised with Saddam, and nobody in Clinton administration ever said anything like this: Clinton didn’t “authorize” jack-shit and you know it. There is a huge difference between stating a goal for the future (regime change in Iraq) and launching a full-scale invasion under false pretenses. And what’s really funny is, if Clinton had NOT signed off on the goal of regime change in Iraq, you and your ilk would be screaming “Saddam-lover” from the rooftops. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094/125 "2005-08-20T03:37:20Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > There is a good long-standing American tradition to decieve the population by promising peace and delivering war. Woodrow, Franklin, George… **Liberal** may be dying (sadly, at the same rate as the rest of us) but it’s looking more and more likely that **december** ’s protege had a fairly serious stroke. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094/126 "2005-08-20T03:39:36Z")
> [@](#): > > **New Iskander** : I think if it was not for ‘affaire Lewinsky’, Clinton might have done it. Damn. Think how much better off our country might have been if someone had just given old George a little “tea and sympathy” behind closed doors. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094/127 "2005-08-20T03:41:06Z")
> [@Pazu](#): > > And it took Bush’s war to discover this…? Them A-raybs are really sneaky. Do you have any idea how many rocks there are in Iraq? There were, like, 13 guys hiding behind every rock. Maybe next our Fearless Leader will move from Faith-Based Mission Planning to just plain divination using the entrails of a chicken? -Joe, sorry for the chicken but you know, eggs, omlettes ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094/128 "2005-08-20T07:07:16Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It still wasn’t the monumental, Olympic-sized fuckup Iraq is, but it wasn’t competent. I never said it was _flawless_ leadership. And considering the relatively low cost in lives and money, it looks like freakin’ genius next to Dubya’s Damn Fool War. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094/129 "2005-08-20T07:29:16Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Don’t miss it, **Red Fury**. It even has that bomber picture you like so much. You must be confusing me with someone else that fucked ya. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094/130 "2005-08-20T12:56:26Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > I never said it was _flawless_ leadership. And considering the relatively low cost in lives and money, it looks like freakin’ genius next to Dubya’s Damn Fool War. No, what you said was that it was competent. It wasn’t. It was simply a case of a big country bullying a smaller one and not even doing a good job of it, and incidentally doing plenty of lying to get us there. (Of course, in this case it was many big countries bullying a smaller one.) The fact that Bush has fucked up even worse does not make Kosovo a good thing. If you don’t want the chickenhawks making dumb-ass Clinton comparisons, don’t make any yourself. (Not that it will stop them.) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094/131 "2005-08-20T13:35:14Z")
I was opposed to the U.S. actions in Kosovo, but you have to admit it came off better than the charlie-foxtrot in Iraq. It was interesting, since _Wag The Dog_ had somewhat recently been released, that the U.S. went to Kosovo shortly after the Lewinski affair came to light. My cynical nature saw too many parallels. Yes, Clinton called for regime change in Iraq; but I do not believe he would have fabricated information and lied to the American people and the world in order to invade. Yes, he ordered strikes in Iraq; but those were legitimate under the UN rules since our aircraft were being targeted. Would he have captured or killed ObL? Maybe, maybe not; but I think he would have put more troops in Afghanistan and would have done a more thorough job. He would have gone after the terrorists and would have left Iraq for another day. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094/132 "2005-08-20T13:46:55Z")
Clinton wouldn’t have authorized the Iraq invasion because it would have been hugely unpopular before 9/11 (“nation-building”, anyone?) It would have given the Republican congress more fodder than they already had to accuse him of being a loose cannon and wanting to start a lot of unnecessary and ill-conceived wars :rolleyes:. Clinton and Bush both made mistakes. Their mistake was not pressing the war _hard enough_. By Bush, I mean HW Bush. So now, instead of armed militia groups vying for control of Iraq, several of which actually support the U.S., we have armed groups that all hate us (except maybe the Kurds?) since we let Saddam kill all the pro-american resistance. Thanks, Bush. And we have Clinton to thank for helping millions die in Yugoslavia and Rwanda. Thanks a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094/133 "2005-08-20T14:42:35Z")
I hate coming in late to something: the original link doesn’t work anymore. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094/134 "2005-08-20T15:11:29Z")
Horses tasted the water and suddenly galloped away… ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094/135 "2005-08-20T15:44:56Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Horses tasted the water and suddenly galloped away… Fish ran the Indy 500 on Einstein Day…yellow. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094/136 "2005-08-20T15:45:55Z")
[U.S. Lowers Sights On What Can Be Achieved in Iraq](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/13/AR2005081300853.html) > [@](#): > > Administration Is Shedding ‘Unreality’ That Dominated Invasion, Official Says ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094/137 "2005-08-20T15:47:57Z")
PS-The above link was for Chefguy and/or anyone else who missed reading the article from the OP’s link. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094/138 "2005-08-20T15:53:31Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Clinton wouldn’t have authorized the Iraq invasion because it would have been hugely unpopular before 9/11 (“nation-building”, anyone?) It would have given the Republican congress more fodder than they already had to accuse him of being a loose cannon and wanting to start a lot of unnecessary and ill-conceived wars :rolleyes:. > > Clinton and Bush both made mistakes. Their mistake was not pressing the war _hard enough_. By Bush, I mean HW Bush. So now, instead of armed militia groups vying for control of Iraq, several of which actually support the U.S., we have armed groups that all hate us (except maybe the Kurds?) since we let Saddam kill all the pro-american resistance. Thanks, Bush. > > And we have Clinton to thank for helping millions die in Yugoslavia and Rwanda. Thanks a lot. You are implying a false equivalence between Clinton and Bush that simply does not exist, a common tactic of right-wing apologists for Bush. Clinton would NEVER have invaded Iraq, not would Gore have, because the FACTS available at all times indicated that Saddam had NOTHING to do with 9/11 and that the case for Saddam’s possession of WMDs was weak at best and nonexistent if you were reasonable. This blunder is strictly a result of idiot cowboy Bush wanting to ride off to war in a cloud of glory. There is NO equivalence to be had on the issue of Iraq between Gore and Clinton and Gore and anybody else. It’s HIS stupidity and HIS arrogance that got us embroilled in Iraq, and no one in recent history comes even close to him. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094/139 "2005-08-20T16:48:09Z")
> [@Spiny Norman](#): > > Isn’t it amazing how the “b-b-b-but _Clinton_!” line of misdirection never, ever goes out of style ? I think it’s very telling that a knee-jerk rightwing dimbulb like **Iskander** can’t think of any better line to justify the Iraq misadventure than “Well Clinton would have screwed up just as bad!” Of course, if the war were going well, **Iskander** and his ilk would never suggest in a million years that either Clinton or Gore would have had the balls to do it. That fact that he is alleging that Clinton would have done it is pretty much a concession that even he understands the whole thing is completely FUBAR. This would be hilarious if it weren’t so pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094/140 "2005-08-20T17:37:48Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > PS-The above link was for Chefguy and/or anyone else who missed reading the article from the OP’s link. Thanks. I’m completely unsurprised by this turn of events. The following: > [@](#): > > “We didn’t calculate the depths of feeling in both the Kurdish and Shiite communities for a winner-take-all attitude,” said Judith S. Yaphe, a former CIA Iraq analyst at the National Defense University. is stunning in its stupidity and naivete. In a region where hate and feuding is a way of life, what did they think would happen? That old tribal and religious animosity would just evaporate because some petty dictator was deposed? This is colonialist thinking at its worst. We never fucking learn, and it’s most disheartening. The aftermath of this whole thing will be as bloody and brutal as Saddam’s regime ever was, and we will end up with a religious dictatorship now funded, trained and equipped by the U.S. Sound familiar? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reality-finally-sinking-in-iraq-expectations-lowered/317094.md?page=8)