# Really dumb college athletes? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 28, 2010, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759 "2010-08-28T03:23:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![antonio107](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7ea924/32.png) [@antonio107](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antonio107)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759/1 "2010-08-28T03:23:48Z")
As an academic in training, I always hear snarky remarks about American colleges and how much they care about sports. Athletes that get into university on a sports scholarship, and float their way through three or four years. Now, if you’re phenomenal at your sport that should perhaps cut you a _bit_ of slack on your grades (emphasis on “bit”). But who’s the worst of the worst? Hearsay aside, is there a strong example of someone who got to university, maybe even got an undergraduate degree, but really doesn’t seem to have the mental fortitude to go with the degree? The juicier the anecdote, the better - illiterate quarterback with a B.A. in English, something like that! ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ea5d25/32.png) [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759/2 "2010-08-28T04:42:21Z")
Dexter Manley did four years at Oklahoma State yet emerged functionally illiterate. The question is, of course, how much blame OK State bears for this. I would argue, “the majority of it.” ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759/3 "2010-08-28T04:53:57Z")
[Clancy Williams](http://washingtonstate.scout.com/2/94849.html) worked for me after retiring from the Rams. My office manager once asked me if he played without a helmet. Dumber than a bag of hair. ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759/4 "2010-08-28T04:54:18Z")
[Here’s a lengthy but worthwhile](http://sports.espn.go.com/page2/tvlistings/show103transcript.html) transcript of an ESPN _Outside the Lines_ program which focused on Kevin Ross, who starred in basketball at Creighton University and stayed eligible by taking such courses as “Marksmanship” and “Theory of Basketball”. When the class featured a more rigorous workload, there was a secretary to do homework, and test papers which were filled in ahead of time except for the blank beside “Name”. After leaving Creighton as a functional illiterate, Kevin enrolled at the age of 23 in a preparatory school. An _elementary_ prep school. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759/5 "2010-08-28T05:02:37Z")
I know graduate students at USC whose professors have instructed them to ignore blatant cheating from football players. The professors are probably getting leaned on as well, of course, which explains it but doesn’t excuse it. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759/6 "2010-08-28T14:39:04Z")
You can look at graduation rates online at the NCAA to get a feel for it. For example, USC: FRESHMAN-COHORT GRADUATION RATES 2002-03 Graduation Rate 88% All Students 71% Student-Athletes Student-Athlete Graduation Success Rate 74% [http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal/ncaahome?WCM\_GLOBAL\_CONTEXT=/ncaa/ncaa/academics+and+athletes/education+and+research/academic+reform/grad+rate/2009/794tra601\_2009\_d1\_school\_grad\_rate\_data.html](http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal/ncaahome?WCM_GLOBAL_CONTEXT=/ncaa/ncaa/academics+and+athletes/education+and+research/academic+reform/grad+rate/2009/794tra601_2009_d1_school_grad_rate_data.html) ---
**Author:** ![markdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@markdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdash)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759/7 "2010-08-28T15:02:20Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > You can look at graduation rates online at the NCAA to get a feel for it. For example, USC: > > FRESHMAN-COHORT GRADUATION RATES > > 2002-03 Graduation Rate > 88% All Students > 71% Student-Athletes > Student-Athlete Graduation Success Rate 74% > > [http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal/ncaahome?WCM\_GLOBAL\_CONTEXT=/ncaa/ncaa/academics+and+athletes/education+and+research/academic+reform/grad+rate/2009/794tra601\_2009\_d1\_school\_grad\_rate\_data.html](http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal/ncaahome?WCM_GLOBAL_CONTEXT=/ncaa/ncaa/academics+and+athletes/education+and+research/academic+reform/grad+rate/2009/794tra601_2009_d1_school_grad_rate_data.html) Unfortunately, graduation rates don’t tell a whole lot about the quality of education received by student-athletes. They often receive free tutoring and lecture notes, and take general education classes that are much easier than upper-division or technical classes. Comparing them against the student population at large is not a fair comparison. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759/8 "2010-08-28T15:07:47Z")
There are fewer “dumb” athletes (overall) than you might think. For some highly paid sales and marketing jobs including those involving stocks and bonds, being involved in a team sport on a collegiate level gives you a huge leg up as a job applicant, as these are seen as strong indicators of potential success. The most poorly educated I saw in my college experience in the late 70’s at the Univ of Maryland, College Park were the basketball players from the inner city, but to give [Lefty Driesell](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lefty_Driesell) credit he did have lots of programs to help them along. How effective these were I don’t know. One thing that surprised me years after I graduated was some article they ran in the Wash Post on [John Thompson of Georgetown](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Thompson_(basketball)). John Thompson was considered a genius for taking these academically unprepared kids and turning them into student athletes. Georgetown is fairly elite academically and I always wondered how Thompson got his inner city basketball to perform academically. Turns out he didn’t, however he got them onboard, they had huge failure rates and little academic support. His MO was just to grind through players for a year of two on the front end, and let them succeed or fail. It was sink or swim unless you were a superstar. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759/9 "2010-08-28T15:24:19Z")
> [@markdash](#): > > > [@Algher](#): > > > > You can look at graduation rates online at the NCAA to get a feel for it. For example, USC: > > > > FRESHMAN-COHORT GRADUATION RATES > > > > 2002-03 Graduation Rate > > 88% All Students > > 71% Student-Athletes > > Student-Athlete Graduation Success Rate 74% > > > > [http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal/ncaahome?WCM\_GLOBAL\_CONTEXT=/ncaa/ncaa/academics+and+athletes/education+and+research/academic+reform/grad+rate/2009/794tra601\_2009\_d1\_school\_grad\_rate\_data.html](http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal/ncaahome?WCM_GLOBAL_CONTEXT=/ncaa/ncaa/academics+and+athletes/education+and+research/academic+reform/grad+rate/2009/794tra601_2009_d1_school_grad_rate_data.html) > > Unfortunately, graduation rates don’t tell a whole lot about the quality of education received by student-athletes. They often receive free tutoring and lecture notes, and take general education classes that are much easier than upper-division or technical classes. Comparing them against the student population at large is not a fair comparison. General Education won’t get you a diploma at most schools, however. Tutoring and lecture notes are available to everyone. That said, I consider the discrepancy in graduation rates to be VERY telling, especially when you drill down into them for certain sports. USC’s report (in pdf): [http://web1.ncaa.org/app\_data/nH8egsr2009/657.pdf](http://web1.ncaa.org/app_data/nH8egsr2009/657.pdf) What we find here is that USC’s football and basketball players graduate around HALF of their players. It is the other sports and the women that help bring the average back up, but still below that of the general population. Which brings me back to one of my favorite games of recent years - Stanford over USC at USC. > [@](#): > > The Cardinal offensive line? Everyone was on a high school honor roll. One is now a classics major. Another is working on his bachelor’s in science, technology and society while getting a master’s in sociology. > > This is the team that upset USC on Saturday. > > During the game, I counted 66 kids in Cardinal red and white. In their media guide, more than half – 36 – were listed in the National Honor Society. More than a dozen were Merit Scholars in high school. Ten are now academic All-Pacific 10 Conference. Eight are studying for advanced degrees. > **[Using their brains](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2007-oct-09-sp-streeter9-story.html)** > > Stanford pays a price for high academic standards, but these scholars figured out how to beat USC ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759/10 "2010-08-28T18:56:05Z")
To be fair, USC has a number of players every year that leaves school early to go to the NFL. Some also transfer because, although they are very, very good, they are stuck being the backup for a superstar and prefer to go someplace where they can play and get attention. Three or four of those in an season in an average class of about 20 can really skew the statistics. USC’s offensive line in that game against Stanford featured [Jeff Byers](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Byers), the Gatorade National Player of the Year in 2004 (best high school athlete in any sport in the country) who managed to finish his undergraduate degree plus an MBA while on scholarship. If you remove football and basketball from the equation, athletes graduate at a higher level than non-athletes. That said, I think the first response is the best example. Those days are largely over, though. Standards are a lot tougher these days, even for great athletes. ---
**Author:** ![Animastryfe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8797f3/32.png) [@Animastryfe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Animastryfe)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759/11 "2010-08-28T20:22:55Z")
My friend at Queens university in Canada told me that many players in the Rugby team are engineering majors; their biggest player is a physics major. ---
**Author:** ![Cyberhwk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7993a0/32.png) [@Cyberhwk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyberhwk)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2010, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759/12 "2010-08-29T02:11:14Z")
> [@appleciders](#): > > I know graduate students at USC whose professors have instructed them to ignore blatant cheating from football players. The professors are probably getting leaned on as well, of course, which explains it but doesn’t excuse it. I’d have never believed this if I hadn’t heard a similar story with my own ears. I was really good friends with a coworker who played a two seasons of basketball at a college in Nevada. He said he had a class where he walked in, picked up the class outline and never came back. Never took a single test, quiz or did a single assignment. Got a B-. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2010, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759/13 "2010-08-29T05:09:09Z")
There are really only two college sports in which this is an issue: football and men’s basketball. I’d be willing to bet that. if you excluded these sports, you’d find that the graduation rates of varsity athletes of BOTH genders is about as good as that of the student body as a whole- perhaps even a little HIGHER. Football and men’s basketball are different for several reasons. First, a high school baseball or ice hockey star with poor grades doesn’t NEED to go to college to have a shot at playing professionally. He can play in the minor leagues and work his way up without pretending to be a real college student. But to have a shot at making it to the NFL, a football player almost HAS to go to college. There are more high school players jumping directly to the NBA today, of course, but many kids who aspire to play in the NBA still feel that playing for a top college program gives them their best shot. Second, the students who compete in sports like diving, swimming, lacrosse or golf tend to be rich or upper middle class. Such kids probably went to excellent high schools and probably perform well academically in college. Third, football and basketball are big revenue sports, and the coaches are under HUGE pressure to succeed. The women’s archery coach isn’t likely to be fired if his team wins just over 50% of its events every year, but a football or men’s basketball coach WILL be fired if he doesn’t win consistently. That means football and basketball coaches have much more incentive to cut corners and bring in elite athletes, regardless of whether they’re college material academically. ---
**Author:** ![Shawn1767](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shawn1767](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shawn1767)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2010, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759/14 "2010-08-29T07:24:58Z")
My anecdote: I was at the University of Southwestern Louisiana (now ULL) back when Tulane University in New Orleans was caught in a point-shaving scandal and lost its basketball program. A number of their players transferred to USL where I was doing my work-study as an assistant to the remedial reading teacher. All of the players who transferred were in remedial reading and I graded their assignments. Not one could score higher than a 30 percent on the old SRA reading selections that were on the third-grade reading level. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2010, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759/15 "2010-08-29T16:17:24Z")
Question begged then: I know the NBA has some minor leagues, so, if all else fails, you can go there if you’re so hopelessly dim that even the colleges won’t accept you. But are there football minor leagues? NFL Europe used to be a sort of stepping-stone of that sort, but is now defunct. I don’t know if the Arena leagues see much movement to the NFL, and those who go to the CFL seem to stay there for the most part (the Warren Moons of the world being the rare exceptions). ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2010, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759/16 "2010-08-29T16:28:26Z")
when i went to school i roomed as a freshmen with a guy on the basketball team. stud player. graduated in four years and i swear if you would have asked him what 2 + 2 equals, he would have said green. nice enough fellow, though. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759/17 "2010-08-29T16:29:11Z")
> [@antonio107](#): > > Now, if you’re phenomenal at your sport that should perhaps cut you a _bit_ of slack on your grades… Why? ---
**Author:** ![Hunter\_Hawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/50afbb/32.png) [@Hunter\_Hawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hunter_Hawk)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2010, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759/18 "2010-08-29T16:32:52Z")
> [@Animastryfe](#): > > My friend at Queens university in Canada told me that many players in the Rugby team are engineering majors; their biggest player is a physics major. I west to RPI, and if you looked down the ice-hockey roster, the players’ majors looked like Marketing Marketing Marketing Marketing Marketing Marketing Marketing Marketing Marketing Aerospace Engineering Marketing Marketing Marketing Marketing Marketing ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2010, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759/19 "2010-08-29T16:42:37Z")
> [@Animastryfe](#): > > My friend at Queens university in Canada told me that many players in the Rugby team are engineering majors; their biggest player is a physics major. Rugby Union’s always had a strong association with the educated, though. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2010, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759/20 "2010-08-29T18:35:00Z")
For the flip side of the OP, this [1988 SI story](http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1067704/index.htm) about UWisconsin DE Don Davey is fascinating reading. His wiki lists him as having a 7 year pro career, which is frankly longer than I would have imagined, reading the article. The article really changed my views on college athletics when I read it when it originally came out. IMHO, you cannot be a successful D-1 athlete at either basketball or football and take an academically rigorous major without having near-superhuman levels of endurance. Far better to simply give these guys a full-ride voucher they could redeem whenever they wanted, including after their athletic career when they had more time to actually study. In the interim, the college could give them room and board and they could devote their time to their required profession: athlete. Another reason I can’t stand major college athletics. At least baseball has the integrity to have their own farm system. Moreover, a skilled player cannot make the leap directly from H.S. to either the NBA or NFL. They must wait at least one year (NBA) or three years (NFL, thank you [Sonia Sotomayor](http://ftp.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F3/369/369.F3d.124.04-0943.html)). At least NBA-quality high school players can go to a reasonably horizontal league (Europe, Israel, etc…) to hone their skills, a la Brandon Jennings. Maybe the CFL is a reasonable equivalent to the NFL if you squint. Otherwise, it’s off to the NCAA where—officially—your potential for income is drastically limited, and your coach is often the highest paid campus employee. You can keep it. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759.md?page=2)